From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Sat, 19 Jul 2025 05:13:38 -0700 Received: from mail-yw1-f186.google.com ([209.85.128.186]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1ud6Rd-0006yt-Ou for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 05:13:38 -0700 Received: by mail-yw1-f186.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-713e879bd7csf38211427b3.0 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 05:13:37 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1752927211; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=Wbbx29nB6DEBi0i5x6tmQVAaCB0IOt51wv7iQn86l2TFKSjuQnyE8NxHERnua9V9S5 SjVcR8E0XhwST1ACTlq/L63pS3DUxOUBWh34kQNjRI9jujdinD/+h2of+Oi+o9yDjA2C mJtwUOLlyTVNMrjmLiFNVdyrauVtdEEw4YAwAZV1XRZC4oksVHCbuER8vV+pRIS7CMAF v+YxMbZ+8Liyudrvz3AG0mtpAtzTzH1IjYNvTxQTyXVMP/oY5KbadmsAefbiDypQPMW5 tdkgfgvfum8rsIgT1x3FvVWFYzIneIl3EQL9naNxO9YXFN4s0B8oMGZTLQ1VrvV4weLG Uejg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date :feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature; bh=RMgJWPx40uyN2DB84s0aCoHc9FYTrZgHgmSzxePnYH0=; fh=6gPf/MgfAHpJGh0yue7AHZV7fpS3qhYNS2if/s0RE1g=; b=Al7Y5MXiNmLIoEH3nDA7qRK3VqD9zhW86DolQkvLI3o8nYrP/JtWe7DmX/0UY1INDa g4LkQnpkjGgNhuDz8dJlwX1wShOCQw8K+NNGRUJMog1j7tsKzg6DIG9BIQ3oZsesSxUP hQrcPGldZqzqIQbzZDIIhibnoudJq7keVntXYcd72ah45TbxdDbIHC4J+Dxpcy6JJKk7 bAMQQTylZ7mgUDXPSnm/zMlZ2VmwvOqHlsVnFDCUTENlRhIUNKB3SWa+mKQgsmlfqGZn pNkeeWADRB0FdabduRBhw0eAf2cp02jpZ1h91F4TCgB41wm+0yDhN5QVc7HFjBkjt3t4 8Kvg==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=VUu5L16W; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1752927211; x=1753532011; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=RMgJWPx40uyN2DB84s0aCoHc9FYTrZgHgmSzxePnYH0=; b=ayOk50r2KgCY7kAELsC7W+tEV2BloCxjEUh6dEQ4Vb/S24JeaSgFTIqwBG2qsBF/Ix AGIE1K9dkOF3esDGy3NdbdnZzAS1qwOfLD/fUpFl6SJ9ppKIClw/HEJi4KyR4TnH73ww VBkAFfYro81fRP5oajAVk/qBziegT/AQTMOrcIK5hPNzz8AGshM/hSlMpuZX9yqjXACt fdzu4bSkOW0dqFbQ6uO5chzA6jTsLe4fUqTNNOw70C7v+CtqjKOozGTlM4EANJMl4tyR FtzXRX6fCZLjeoy4j0nVCTV+ok/PeivO6UecyH0c9jKqxqlkHFjPeWZQl0xhCsvwSdJ0 Bv+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1752927211; x=1753532011; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=RMgJWPx40uyN2DB84s0aCoHc9FYTrZgHgmSzxePnYH0=; b=GYi4m0JwmF0oK+vD0v4yI92FIXzhoABgHvE2MzdCKSQJjON8go6O2YapnM7VKuMPqS AM3bg18CF/S/4rgUhiSoBlHkhkvJDrOIip8g8+5/QNR6c3s+BVA/DIWM57FhvQwzjh+q huCzV03E9SRVAqqIoFGpg1ZMJRjKFP19xMkR5EBnmg1yZik4a5hgQpeGp+hzFJhd2aX6 3kq3XPOP1CSVXQSF+R0A9g6fAD+nBtCqySTHIINHtHDknWUkabwRenvGS5yvk0B59PO7 aOyvPJrDwNkzQgjIZ58MrpUX6wXGQgjq4np0nwnSdLDEQtz8A/5sYDx7hy+iO2uGBSaS XkVg== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCXSkdVnXSaB5Mh4ERghVMl3CZGlS+Ej0flGIs6nNRUn+XIC8/FEUnn3x7QEGNcPOVZDPyKqBGClsgxA@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YygoHLC23tVLJG3vmGocIVcY4ByR+0kV8LkrCjvWOnngf9hdy7c lxrLVHbbAMV1C/Aod+6D61eQR2Fv/zs3mXeYDLyvRqAxSxm45UdxxKRt X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFwYpGwupRkp3rwjqCXaxnWQLuARpUCf+Q8UtwtJ6/VoPyx0aWGzNKJ7k7c2lEPHTs99Mt/oQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:1610:b0:e8b:c73e:5855 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e8bc73e9e3bmr16064151276.36.1752927211235; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 05:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZeD23KhuDdTxwOznkzlWn+r8am5SHnMIy7crR9IxmMoGA== Received: by 2002:a05:6902:729:b0:e8b:c337:7049 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e8bd45fa651ls3376948276.1.-pod-prod-02-us; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 05:13:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWldLNKgLxmj8MhsXe08/2CiZUG6sZkyl+PERUokjoRcKLjKnI1dRaY9M6csIE+BfQfJqqYEifMVe+9@googlegroups.com X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:18:b0:712:de91:53d4 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71835041da3mr218822227b3.24.1752927207112; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 05:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:86a2:b0:40c:fd76:4b4 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-41f7737646dmsb6e; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 05:06:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCVWPeZ8p7QvQBmVRNHjTTucgu+Lwu/vx8JCGTM3z2bZMEPXnNTHXLS8hB/QUNEGbUsiWYQHYXafV3j9@googlegroups.com X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4fcc:b0:312:e1ec:de44 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-31c9e77050fmr21775238a91.27.1752926758893; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 05:05:58 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1752926758; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=kzcwy+UJfGmXzfzlpTV8M3Vo8gJT4WDS7LK7PxCMXODJwaA52abfx6zawohpUzTfG1 BLT7LDn7ce4enMGnTNbitLWRzneiZKQBvD5RKjtfeuBTjk23S66Ixne5V3QZVi9Xg+Pc uBDOvplNes3xPTtZIKVepK+yGmegSAB2hkwp7xYxg0sQTixV6in1UDarzjSrTozFr/qr RDLLqn8UOa0tyyvhNcKQMMSeHC/eHA1KU2IzQO1RXNLoSpLbPJq4z7Yof1D9UapCH/uO g1mDygrwT/Zkw2qfvoSyo9pSggVbQwJPvlPUPjQGhleWNyVlIdFHyawRo9dOc6h/y0YT AW9Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature; bh=Cwyr6O4k/50CCm6co9NmJJPQc6cUzLgngndpcD+xt9E=; fh=PhWLVuXojZzLCfTtvbO3Y9A9VOa0WNfWg2aAaNqpgLE=; b=I3/ERVQkanJkkFL8Bkzt1IOnDxAhPFQtKlF93teExxP0N5nxQ4lQUkjyQenzRg4vj/ 8vCCsfy0Rd5spd43MyCRuxBsJFdQ6AbC/bX8ZuWnThdEifWneIUqoi6w9W30uF0nI6Nd Fd6PEtHh6g8SkdcMp9WxVslAy58Sy4xlQJ+XNVFiDA/PCgv8XPQgiRRjFIoqrWWOGbo8 hY1KFVES5ylBkUaG1lJMQxtZG8Z/GcLVMl867tA9FBBLrYRybfuTRQs3f7nPeT0t8TEC lORYSc3U8LAR99nmJ/RS2iH4ZiUYfVXpJ8zoa57N+dMIqWuUcvGbViVdWMuRkb4VXvBH xpeA==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=VUu5L16W; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Received: from fhigh-a5-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-a5-smtp.messagingengine.com. [103.168.172.156]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9443c01a7336-23e3b6da3e6si1394135ad.10.2025.07.19.05.05.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 19 Jul 2025 05:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.156; Received: from phl-compute-04.internal (phl-compute-04.phl.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailfhigh.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC2F14000BB; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 08:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-04.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 19 Jul 2025 08:05:57 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtdefgdeiiedvkecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegr ihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjug hrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfv ohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnh epledvleelffdtudekudffjefgfeejueehieelfedtgfetudetgeegveeutefhjedtnecu ffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhg pdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopeefpdhmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegrnh htohhinhgvrdhrihgrrhgusehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepjhgrmhgvshho nhdrlhhophhpsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepsghithgtohhinhguvghvse hgohhoghhlvghgrhhouhhpshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 08:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C86A69FD08; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 12:05:52 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2025 12:05:52 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Jameson Lopp Cc: Antoine Riard , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: A Post Quantum Migration Proposal Message-ID: References: <37ed2e5d-34cd-4391-84b8-5bcc6d42c617n@googlegroups.com> <4d9ce13e-466d-478b-ab4d-00404c80d620n@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/RVQnn3eHeK9cejI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=VUu5L16W; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --/RVQnn3eHeK9cejI Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 02:52:17PM -0400, Jameson Lopp wrote: > Correct, this time is different in that we're not talking about vague > unknown weaknesses. Rather, we're talking about a known algorithm that > makes breaking cryptographic primitives orders of magnitude cheaper. We already have known algorithms that would break cryptographic primitives if sufficiently good analog computers actually existed. Or for that matter, "split the universe" brute forcing. No-one is worried about them because "sufficiently good" analog computers and multiverses are widely belived to not be physically realizable. For all the claims of progress on quantum computing hardware, the fact still remains that no-one is even close to demonstrating cryptographic-relevant quantum computing capabilities and the actual cryptographic-relevant capabilities of real hardware are laughable. It's still an unknown whether or not they are physically possible, and outside of the part of the physics community that would like to sell you a quantum computer - or research developing one - they're widely belived to be not physical. Hence, these are still vague unknown weaknesses. Until progress is less vague, actively freezing peoples' coins is not going to happen. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aHuKIKqvCZl5rcEX%40petertodd.org. --/RVQnn3eHeK9cejI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmh7ih8ACgkQLly11TVR Lzf1mRAAtd1bbIyQZs7qhPL3C/MQs+uIsvsNe6Not5vZD1dlqqRdrEkMpPsyVvnt SsZXLAKj4ABoSsGdh0YOs0fCVELDKAgJPBXtjWE4Kt2vlwt4FNyokzun+swTF6S7 MJxCTvQm+9eMhC3+wfL+1VAb62z+ON+GWmNNPRb6ujKWdBsOSKcomk3KHuX20rk7 IwHpNhyQ/uyRleov5l3Yqea1RrbXDId0miKYfaKCbK5lNmzbovF5RsZR6Nxd5848 eYz6mQvNpXdbUzq0PgJJa6DtrRY9BYnQ+a2DZ8lbDD7ycKhw8ROz00K6BmkTbTyR iUtrihTx5j+Om5wnheJbA5D3+cpAMiBylQkrkmoeQ2yd2ZGqKaHlS6BUNpFr551k 4LBxXKY1nKwu1Lvuf8VL54WRJvZvR5mUWCKackBfpnNaL6CarWdalKYxo4J6+2d6 ANk8RZLP1aniggyYG8CWUw8aHO8mw+s/h6WeNGH9G56fTz9900ajonhKs1xTlT3l gRU84lptzqfzitug9R/1UkLdH6nDnIQYIhlhZMRNw+GHrulVTZpNDCUmTi3sn/aP eoxOyF1xWYT36z5qBQf5zRu8vqiJE2aEWKIxJW69JGNBUyGz3C4/jA4T/sKDBInY xVv0HfPw0au3QBDFzDQkX5876Awa+72r0QIe63IyIvSFFaXOdQA= =QohK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/RVQnn3eHeK9cejI--