From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C80C0001 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 18:22:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8320443199 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 18:22:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UKsRrv_NI3CR for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 18:22:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-pf1-f176.google.com (mail-pf1-f176.google.com [209.85.210.176]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E55E4319F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 18:22:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf1-f176.google.com with SMTP id e3so10368630pfj.6 for ; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 10:22:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=in-reply-to:references:thread-topic:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to:message-id; bh=b7201XdlGJ0C3+Fj8n5fdUehuhihdnyNsay+9HpSKB8=; b=BHp2/WDCgruXbTS3E+M2n6mUxqjKsQ28rZwj3w/qtcS2Gn8mj49oBLHrVO2XEfkdLf yDVQROTCWwpWclyWXuk6va9O826m621C9LEofmKhfs5ztrHZngqXOT4sJgUbKvpkjDbF V0HeDrZgtA679os9januMieeCKnawZE+TWt077bbPdZta4bgZKS1qkQG2Zqu7vAM2CUE EYc5Y0Ozcj2CqQ8jzYE6A8uIpC9Wr2Bpq7PKDohGADEeptAuknmwlvs4vApzx/w5Yugq zS2kcfs9v/WLGCW4LrzfE0a4n1V/cesENzPw4LZ4nEhgUrpzcy+p8N9zJRIZiNe1yjGa sUAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:in-reply-to:references:thread-topic:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to :message-id; bh=b7201XdlGJ0C3+Fj8n5fdUehuhihdnyNsay+9HpSKB8=; b=Yu9MeOPC99RpVzjwOS79qPwLxnL1kqJ54kmtHgXSg2Bfz2lbC+WSU5xRF/ECLqABdX AzbwbtP7bt3E94qQOcK+1AS4+DZZVkrDhxusJmjv9G/EMlm4T6EXC5Dw0+GMRAlC0kkO J1cEFoG9CpTkPfyD68Y4s+7vDeNn6KHAA2HALZhxYGbAIOUoq3OQR0VmtdQmcb4hSXg5 5k+sSURyhgVuLFJxlSlKZ44HUbs3bA9dQaEnf54Z29U5TrtJ4c4OgVtkuo1PITzGJDYm SzVIzfK48MVRLpM5VDXOx+ZKJu7/7VfgOWbLsJm4Iaa4EBhG1m4wlUggm+o1Sc911xPJ Fyxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533B7/47r3PcJ/tk8risLUho8mQ5Nk+5VwR6s5H6J3p60zffojcY vFSwuYhMWD+tJ7/400P/UBE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwPpF7eHgK/ReWzkadZD/kr23PmMjB3Ic1b06K1mW6Bgf04gshRiaJhJMOstrkgKURsGM7tUw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8493:0:b029:1ee:75b2:2865 with SMTP id u19-20020aa784930000b02901ee75b22865mr4358018pfn.61.1614709358847; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 10:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.168.106] (d142-179-7-88.bchsia.telus.net. [142.179.7.88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id gg22sm4130603pjb.20.2021.03.02.10.22.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Tue, 02 Mar 2021 10:22:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: X-Referenced-Uid: 24154 Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-dev] UASF (LOT=true) kick off meeting - Tuesday March 2nd 19:00 UTC on ##uasf IRC channel User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----G4Z2TGN9WTXN9EKZQ2RO2QC3GH900Z" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Local-Message-Id: From: Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 10:22:35 -0800 To: Michael Folkson , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Message-ID: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 18:49:57 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] UASF (LOT=true) kick off meeting - Tuesday March 2nd 19:00 UTC on ##uasf IRC channel X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 18:22:40 -0000 ------G4Z2TGN9WTXN9EKZQ2RO2QC3GH900Z Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 It's becoming increasingly clear that core might not be able to release act= ivation code=2E Anyone advocating for a UASF must do tremendous amounts of= work to convince users, miners, and service providers to run a UASF client= =2E Anyone advocating against a UASF or indifferent will take the path of l= east resistance and ignore the rogue client=2E If the movement fails to mat= erialize we will be looking at a minor chain split one year later and a yea= r of wasted time=2E At that moment LOT=3Dfalse can be finally released and = calmer heads can activate on the majority chain=2E The choice has never be= en LOT=3Dfalse versus LOT=3Dtrue=2E It has always been about the order=2E S= ome think LOT=3Dtrue should be attempted first and some think LOT=3Dfalse s= hould be attempted first=2E And the grand majority are indifferent to the c= hoice (won't upgrade until core says it's safe)=2E I'm realizing that a cl= ear advantage of LOT=3Dfalse is that it can happen without the need for a s= ocial movement=2E All that is really needed is the convincing of 95% miners= =2E Apathetic users will never notice any kind of service disruption no mat= ter the success or failure of the activation=2E This is obviously why it na= turally became the default activation method=2E While LOT=3Dtrue, on the o= ther hand, must be able to 51% the blockchain to win the apathetic users=2E= But then the reorgs will not be pretty=2E Or if it ever clearly gets over = the 51% hurdle then all apathetic users now need to scramble to use the rog= ue client to be safe from reorgs=2E Either way it's disruptive=2E Please, = I'm begging you, let's just try LOT=3Dfalse first=2E Let's halt the fight f= or this new UASF movement until it's needed=2E Social movements are hard=2E= Especially hard when the people you're trying to convince don't have a mat= erial threat to their beliefs or freedoms=2E It would be a shame to meet ba= ck here a year later after the risk of verbal conflicts, misdirection, lies= , vilinization, reorgs, double spends, PoW changes, and threats galore=2E = P=2ES=2E I don't think I'm being so apocalyptic this time=2E I actually see= all of those things as *necessary* to the UASF movement=2E Otherwise peopl= e won't be convinced to take a side=2E Cheers Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces On Ma= r 1, 2021, 1:06 PM, at 1:06 PM, Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev wrote: >It is approximately 8 months since= Steve Lee formally kicked off the >Taproot activation discussion by settin= g up the ##taproot-activation >IRC channel=2E Obviously there was discussio= n that considerably predates >that but that was the first recognition that = there needed to be a >focus towards a solution rather than endless circular= debates=2E > >Eight months on it appears there are some who think there is= a >philosopher=E2=80=99s stone still out there that will garner 100 percen= t >consensus and contain zero chain split risk in the worst case >scenario= =2E A philosopher=E2=80=99s stone that us mere mortals have failed to >find= in these 8 months=2E > >While I would be delighted if this philosopher=E2= =80=99s stone is found (and >all are free to continue looking) I think it i= s prudent at this point >to step away from the circular arguments and build= on the progress we >have made in these last 8 months=2E We have effectivel= y achieved >overwhelming consensus on the activation mechanism (BIP 8) and = all of >the parameters apart from one (lockinontimeout or LOT)=2E Again I= =E2=80=99d like >to thank the people who have put hours of work into gettin= g to this >point=2E It is thankless work and it is probably the last thing = any of >us want to be doing=2E > >At this point it is unclear whether Bitco= in Core will be able to >release any activation code whatsoever due to disa= greement logjams=2E >Personally I hope they do but again it is prudent to p= repare for the >scenario where Core is unable to=2E Hence I and others have= assessed >that our energies are better spent working on a community releas= e >implementing LOT=3Dtrue in a similar spirit to 2017=E2=80=99s UASF effor= t=2E I say >similar as this time there really is no need for any antagonism= =2E >Approximately 90 percent of mining pools (taprootactivation=2Ecom) hav= e >declared support and there is overwhelming community consensus to >activ= ate Taproot=2E In the absence of a Core release with activation >code I hop= e and expect all users (including miners) to consider >supporting this UASF= release and consider running it to activate >Taproot=2E > >TL;DR Tomorrow = (Tuesday) we are holding a kick off meeting for this >UASF (LOT=3Dtrue) eff= ort on the ##uasf IRC channel at 19:00 UTC=2E Please >consider attending an= d supporting this effort to get Taproot >activated=2E It would be great to = get users from the 2017 effort >involved in addition to recent Taproot prop= onents from all parts of >our community=2E The future of Bitcoin=E2=80=99s = scalability and privacy depends >on, as it always has, on you the user=2E >= >-- >Michael Folkson >Email: michaelfolkson@gmail=2Ecom >Keybase: michael= folkson >PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3 >__________= _____________________________________ >bitcoin-dev mailing list >bitcoin-de= v@lists=2Elinuxfoundation=2Eorg >https://lists=2Elinuxfoundation=2Eorg/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev ------G4Z2TGN9WTXN9EKZQ2RO2QC3GH900Z Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's becoming increasingly clear= that core might not be able to release activation code=2E

Anyone advocating for a UASF must do tremendous amounts of = work to convince users, miners, and service providers to run a UASF client= =2E Anyone advocating against a UASF or indifferent will take the path of l= east resistance and ignore the rogue client=2E If the movement fails to mat= erialize we will be looking at a minor chain split one year later and a yea= r of wasted time=2E At that moment LOT=3Dfalse can be finally released and = calmer heads can activate on the majority chain=2E

The choice has never been LOT=3Dfalse versus LOT=3Dtrue=2E It has= always been about the order=2E Some think LOT=3Dtrue should be attempted f= irst and some think LOT=3Dfalse should be attempted first=2E And the grand = majority are indifferent to the choice (won't upgrade until core says it's = safe)=2E

I'm realizing that a clear advanta= ge of LOT=3Dfalse is that it can happen without the need for a social movem= ent=2E All that is really needed is the convincing of 95% miners=2E Apathet= ic users will never notice any kind of service disruption no matter the suc= cess or failure of the activation=2E This is obviously why it naturally bec= ame the default activation method=2E

While = LOT=3Dtrue, on the other hand, must be able to 51% the blockchain to win th= e apathetic users=2E But then the reorgs will not be pretty=2E Or if it eve= r clearly gets over the 51% hurdle then all apathetic users now need to scr= amble to use the rogue client to be safe from reorgs=2E Either way it's dis= ruptive=2E

Please, I'm begging you, let's j= ust try LOT=3Dfalse first=2E Let's halt the fight for this new UASF movemen= t until it's needed=2E Social movements are hard=2E Especially hard when th= e people you're trying to convince don't have a material threat to their be= liefs or freedoms=2E It would be a shame to meet back here a year later aft= er the risk of verbal conflicts, misdirection, lies, vilinization, reorgs, = double spends, PoW changes, and threats galore=2E

P=2ES=2E I don't think I'm being so apocalyptic this time=2E I actua= lly see all of those things as *necessary* to the UASF movement=2E Otherwis= e people won't be convinced to take a side=2E

Cheers
Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces
On Mar 1, 2021, at 1:06 PM, Michael Folkson via bitco= in-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists=2Elinuxfoundation=2Eorg> wrote: 
It is approximately 8 months since Steve Lee formally kicked off the
T=
aproot activation discussion by setting up the ##taproot-activation
IRC =
channel=2E Obviously there was discussion that considerably predates
tha=
t but that was the first recognition that there needed to be a
focus tow=
ards a solution rather than endless circular debates=2E

Eight months=
 on it appears there are some who think there is a
philosopher=E2=80=99s=
 stone still out there that will garner 100 percent
consensus and contai=
n zero chain split risk in the worst case
scenario=2E A philosopher=E2=
=80=99s stone that us mere mortals have failed to
find in these 8 months=
=2E

While I would be delighted if this philosopher=E2=80=99s stone i=
s found (and
all are free to continue looking) I think it is prudent at =
this point
to step away from the circular arguments and build on the pro=
gress we
have made in these last 8 months=2E We have effectively achieve=
d
overwhelming consensus on the activation mechanism (BIP 8) and all of<=
br>the parameters apart from one (lockinontimeout or LOT)=2E Again I=E2=80=
=99d like
to thank the people who have put hours of work into getting to=
 this
point=2E It is thankless work and it is probably the last thing an=
y of
us want to be doing=2E

At this point it is unclear whether B=
itcoin Core will be able to
release any activation code whatsoever due t=
o disagreement logjams=2E
Personally I hope they do but again it is prud=
ent to prepare for the
scenario where Core is unable to=2E Hence I and o=
thers have assessed
that our energies are better spent working on a comm=
unity release
implementing LOT=3Dtrue in a similar spirit to 2017=E2=80=
=99s UASF effort=2E I say
similar as this time there really is no need f=
or any antagonism=2E
Approximately 90 percent of mining pools (taprootactivation=2Ecom) have
de=
clared support and there is overwhelming community consensus to
activate=
 Taproot=2E In the absence of a Core release with activation
code I hope=
 and expect all users (including miners) to consider
supporting this UAS=
F release and consider running it to activate
Taproot=2E

TL;DR To=
morrow (Tuesday) we are holding a kick off meeting for this
UASF (LOT=3D=
true) effort on the ##uasf IRC channel at 19:00 UTC=2E Please
consider a=
ttending and supporting this effort to get Taproot
activated=2E It would=
 be great to get users from the 2017 effort
involved in addition to rece=
nt Taproot proponents from all parts of
our community=2E The future of B=
itcoin=E2=80=99s scalability and privacy depends
on, as it always has, o=
n you the user=2E
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