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[69.59.18.99]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d2e1a72fcca58-7142e5a4d50si20166b3a.0.2024.08.21.07.28.37 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 21 Aug 2024 07:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 69.59.18.99 as permitted sender) client-ip=69.59.18.99; X-DKIM-Note: Keys used to sign are likely public at X-DKIM-Note: https://as397444.net/dkim/mattcorallo.com and X-DKIM-Note: https://as397444.net/dkim/clients.mail.as397444.net X-DKIM-Note: For more info, see https://as397444.net/dkim/ Received: by mail.as397444.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) (Exim) (envelope-from ) id 1sgmKC-004voi-21; Wed, 21 Aug 2024 14:28:36 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 10:28:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Mining pools, stratumv2 and oblivious shares To: Anthony Towns Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com References: <26322ee8-08e6-4718-8d1c-60bca8c13c6a@mattcorallo.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Matt Corallo In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed X-Original-Sender: lf-lists@mattcorallo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@mattcorallo.com header.s=1724248862 header.b=Gcvvjh3G; dkim=pass header.i=@clients.mail.as397444.net header.s=1724248864 header.b=G8yjka8u; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 69.59.18.99 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lf-lists@mattcorallo.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=mattcorallo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) On 8/15/24 10:10 PM, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Tue, Aug 13, 2024 at 09:57:06AM -0400, Matt Corallo wrote: > The only way you can do statistical analyses is if miners (including > attackers) can be assigned a persistent identity with reasonable accuracy, > and you restrict your pool to accepting individual miners with a large > enough hashrate that they're expected to find a valid block relatively > frequently. Yep. -snip- > As far as I can see that means your pool is either: > > a) heavily KYCed > b) limited to high-hashrate miners > c) fully validating every share > d) vulnerable to block-withholding attacks, and hence not viable in > the long term in a competitive environment > > Of those, "fully validating every share" seems the most appealing option > to me, but in practical terms, that seems incompatible with "any miner > can freely choose the txs they work on". In practice, of course, (a) > and (b) will presumably be the reality for the forseeable future for > all but a fairly trivial amount of hashrate. Except "fully validating every share" doesn't change anything. You totally missed the point that both I and Luke raised - you can fully validate every share, or not, but either way block withholding requires some kind of statistical analysis to detect, subject to the limitations you raise. >> Adding more explicit "negotiation" to Stratum V2 work selection would defeat >> the purpose - if the pool is able to tell a miner not to work on some work >> it wants to, ... > > A pool is always able to do that -- they can simply mark the share as > invalid after the fact and refuse to pay out on it, and perhaps make > a blog post explaining their policy. The over-the-wire protocol isn't > what provides that ability. A pool can decline to pay out, yes, but the miner will still work on that block. The point of custom work selection is that the miner will *always* work on the block they want, no matter what. And if they mind it, they broadcast it directly themselves. Anything else would defeat the point. A pool can send their users an email and ask them to change the rules of what they mine on, but it then requires an active action taken by the miner to change what they want to mine on. >> The only >> way any kind of centralized pooling with custom work selection adds any >> value to Bitcoin's decentralization is if the clients insist on mining the >> work they want to - whether on the pool or solo mining if the pool doesn't >> want it. > > If you're really expecting miners are going to be constantly telling > their pool "do exactly what I want or I solo mine", I think you're pretty > likely to be disappointed by whatever the future holds... By its nature, > solo mining is something that can only be done profitably by relatively > few players at any given time; it's only potentially decentralised if the > total market for Bitcoin ownership/usage is itself very small. You're totally missing the point that pools can just...pay out properly? Or if they don't people will create new pools that do? Not sure why you think that's a far-fetched outcome. Matt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/c6f1dbbd-f4a3-4783-9e5a-6a64e82fc268%40mattcorallo.com.