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[192.3.11.21]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-309d343e360si823101a91.0.2025.04.26.04.35.55 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 2025 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of luke@dashjr.org designates 192.3.11.21 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.3.11.21; Received: from [1.2.3.4] (redacted.redacted [1.2.3.4]) (Authenticated sender: mailrelay) by zinan.dashjr.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5E0223974088; Sat, 26 Apr 2025 11:35:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Hashcash: 1:23:250426:sjors@sprovoost.nl::2Nit10/QQyLIWTPi:L=Xa X-Hashcash: 1:23:250426:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com::3CO9EUdu8w0MoFKS:lC0i Message-ID: Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2025 07:35:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions To: Sjors Provoost , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com References: <03be4934-f0ff-4b58-880d-861d63a4f970@dashjr.org> Content-Language: en-US, en-GB From: Luke Dashjr In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: luke@dashjr.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@dashjr.org header.s=zinan header.b=C+XoudEH; spf=pass (google.com: domain of luke@dashjr.org designates 192.3.11.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luke@dashjr.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=dashjr.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) On 4/26/25 06:53, Sjors Provoost wrote: > > Op 26 apr 2025, om 11:50 heeft Luke Dashjr het=20 > volgende geschreven: >> >> It should be needless to say, but this idea is utter insanity.=20 >> Disappointing to see positive responses, and not one sensible reply=20 >> calling it out yet. The bugs should be fixed, not the abuse embraced.=20 >> If attackers continue to bypass filters, we can go back to a full=20 >> whitelist approach. >> > Are you proposing a whitelist of authorised public keys? Scripts, of course, not specific keys. Just like we had early on. But=20 that is only necessary if the simpler filter steps are insufficient,=20 which is unlikely. > Your earlier proposal [0] to whitelist certain script forms is not=20 > relevant here, because the Citrea white paper uses unspendable public=20 > keys to encode the data that doesn't fit in OP_RETURN. > > To stop that, you'd have to introduce a rule that only allows=20 > spendable public keys to be put on chain. Afaik, the only way to do=20 > that is to require a signature. That would dramatically increase the=20 > size of all output scripts. Only during flood relay. They don't need to be included in blocks. Even=20 a softfork, should it become necessary, could potentially get away with=20 pruning them after being buried a certain depth. > And that won't fix "spam" either, because you can still grind the=20 > first N bits of every public key and/signature, maybe encode things in=20 > the nonce, etc. It's sufficient to make spam unwelcome and costly. No spam filtration=20 solution needs to be perfect. Every little bit helps. > As for your earlier proposals (Ordisrespector, etc), they were not=20 > useful in general, because they rely too heavily on having=20 > standardness rules go against financial incentives. Only consensus=20 > changes can work, but so far you haven't proposed those. That's nonsense. They were and continue to be very effective, even with=20 only a small amount of adoption. Further, mining centralization and=20 pools denying miners options has been the biggest barrier to that=20 adoption. There is no significant financial impact either, that's just=20 FUD; miners using the fixed and improved spam filters have in fact=20 earned significantly more than miners using Core. > Since "spam" is a cat-and-mouse game, and consensus changes take ages=20 > to design, implement and roll out, it's also not a viable solution. It would be a pain, but it is definitely viable. Thankfully, policy=20 works just fine for spam filtration, and can be adapted much quicker. > Increasing the OP_RETURN limit reduces harm compared to the two=20 > alternatives: > 1. UTXO set bloating with fake public keys > 2. Large scale bypassing of the (default) mempool, which leads to > =C2=A0 =C2=A0a) compact block relay failures (mempool fragmentation) The entire reason compact blocks were acceptable, is that miners are=20 incentivized to conform to non-miner node policies. Now you're trying to=20 bait-and-switch it to nodes conforming to malicious miner policies instead. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0b) centralisation No, this is more FUD. > Custom-but-public relay networks like Libre Relay don't cause (2b),=20 > but (likely) do cause (2a). So it's not good if Bitcoin Core default=20 > policy heavily incentives such an alternative network. That's one=20 > reason why -mempoolfullrbf is now a default. > > You're also not specifying what problem you're trying to solve. Nor=20 > what "damage" is done. If blocks are too big in your opinion, then why=20 > not simply propose a block size decrease (again)? I would not expect=20 > meaningful support for that either, but at least it's simple. > > - Sjors > > [0]=C2=A0https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/29187 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= d18b4149-5523-44bd-8332-2b7962f4b674%40dashjr.org.