From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:01:32 -0700 Received: from mail-yb1-f191.google.com ([209.85.219.191]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rwQe3-00042W-EJ for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:01:31 -0700 Received: by mail-yb1-f191.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-dcc05887ee9sf4342549276.1 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:01:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1713204085; x=1713808885; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:sender:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bRv8Jf4/kFIdBBzxahFO2mjTrCvc67TS44bQ5YNrDxQ=; b=BUmzy/uZOx/kRWVVAddyfkRFXOFwpYqxvQSA+WjSCmcxd8lRu0uWUvTutdY79UM0A0 saIZA0zy4fW2E5etBMqyQAp/KttlGlgJdKbpfoy61pBCMnmWIp81zxQFGDWtrqWRISJG 5ayx1qN0dXrVgD2oYeCOCn1DZU2jjYr452PZlJWK9NC7QWSnnM2TYWGcI3g8r3RFAjVj CbyjcMf+aUdiXoutdSGo4Dditl+OHulLeNImv66609lUmDd8UhlQs7LRICdzuz/Vn+dj Fw21Hsf9Ahc4qmeJE8obQPp7WFAc9YNyH/wX+0axTtKfzb2NVoXCxBTNIaCMxQjqf9Ll +uDQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1713204085; x=1713808885; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bRv8Jf4/kFIdBBzxahFO2mjTrCvc67TS44bQ5YNrDxQ=; b=Hc18jB+sgqjUHlhTid1CyoHHQhRpKzU++jBgLMU4K7g4MrW/8Xt8NfRf3ZPCf4onrA YtdSbFVI9XzcvT4gsuIkoCoGovWcBs0SLzRpA0WW5LddvYd/Qi+HMrbshhfFj6yBpNhl zB0QCpFAAD64E9LhKQZ0+JgdrUvWySITgh1HdQDrjit5DMD85CFMGB/Kt4UTp0Va8sNj U+kKUyuz5YGw/mUN+U+74TraupjqIgBQhIMQRxDDY6p5EHdZrgwux+/wp5M+qjXCmzvH ka1OMvgr+aYu3sfdQMOGYBl5eJ3I6mfURLGEJ8aDHB33SexGvmgDvucHv8Z/orB6tGoh 8q0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1713204085; x=1713808885; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:x-beenthere :x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=bRv8Jf4/kFIdBBzxahFO2mjTrCvc67TS44bQ5YNrDxQ=; b=IGUF4/OWEe1BjsyZGvOKVftvw5uqSiU4g7hYFK1rsrQQsw+l9kXjM9Koy/7RUY2w8h 4b1vAklYETNVxW0peuvqJ9AsMwG6BYBrDrEFckxi+NpfFoMD394JLVCj0W0zSYKFHDgV boJYFYoI00JcXaA5tCMuwCZUc3N96eFQiQbRmt4WkNJEo89oFGjpvEK8jtGPT8v+pz1P qB3T5pVDbENx5KSTKwVUYu7q8mv+nce3nLAdSMAfDoTeuBywAQMoq23qLHcPW9y6ZkYw IC/V6gN+Qj3X/X+FN0GBtgObUEPCm2VTLqQBUD3Z4b/4ZhlOaPpct0SP1XLpWvx5ief6 9g5w== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXNMUqlZYDDSLyr6xLOxLE2kgwdMab6H8JJ1Kv6jUwYiODEixP0aSuXlkXz6ZFArTEK0d83urFYfy+QHxTOsXytTZNrpMo= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx1zqrXh43TCxJ1Taid6ev+qdnxVoB29Ynl7oBRQhEaWSPmL5vv A7IRZN7xmAhJIsj2C1tM6G/p+PBySLWoqZetLW2wGwoXx4XSdXJi X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGclsvdf4FCqQr2tMJL+7jIb3IoCMp0E+OK2jtxJ9q85tkrXiULy3MXZ+wLrPcwKi8fHDRmhA== X-Received: by 2002:a25:6884:0:b0:dcc:2da:e44e with SMTP id d126-20020a256884000000b00dcc02dae44emr7651118ybc.61.1713204085030; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:01:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a25:70c1:0:b0:dcd:a08f:c840 with SMTP id l184-20020a2570c1000000b00dcda08fc840ls612027ybc.1.-pod-prod-09-us; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:01:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:8d:b0:dc7:9218:df47 with SMTP id h13-20020a056902008d00b00dc79218df47mr3152838ybs.5.1713204083819; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:690c:dc6:b0:609:3e5d:63d0 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-61841304c15ms7b3; Tue, 9 Apr 2024 23:57:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a0d:df92:0:b0:615:36af:1997 with SMTP id i140-20020a0ddf92000000b0061536af1997mr499981ywe.1.1712732243634; Tue, 09 Apr 2024 23:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 23:57:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Garlo Nicon To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Future of Bitcoin Testnet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_3034_324913078.1712732243309" X-Original-Sender: garlonicon@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) ------=_Part_3034_324913078.1712732243309 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3035_1941323314.1712732243309" ------=_Part_3035_1941323314.1712732243309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > nothing stops people from using, say, regtest for that kind of testing. How can you test the scenario, where it is hard to get new coins, and you have to get them from the current owners, by using regtest? If the difficulty is absolutely minimal, and every second nonce gives you a valid block hash, then you don't have to worry about your hashrate, because you can always produce a new block, and publish your tests, no matter what. Also, if you have no difficulty adjustments, then you cannot realistically see your hashrate, even on your CPU. You have to apply a lot of soft-forks on regtest, if you want to check those cases. And you cannot test "getting coins from the current owners" either, because regtest is not safe enough to be deployed online, and you have to soft-fork it into signet, if you want to do so. Which means, that if you want to test "how the network could behave after many halvings", then testnet3 is a better choice than regtest (which you cannot safely deploy online) or signet (which have less halvings than even mainnet). And in general, I think it is a good idea, to have at least one test network, which will have more halvings than the mainnet, so we can see in advance, what could happen, before those problems will hit the main network. By the way, when I think about it now, then my conclusion is, that it would be nice, to even have a network, where timestamps are pushed forward, and for example we could see year 2038 or year 2106 problem in some test network earlier, than on the mainnet. sunday, 31 march 2024 at 23:30:04 UTC+2 Peter Todd wrote: On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 06:01:51PM -0300, Nagaev Boris wrote: > > If we fix the difficulty reset bug, we might as well also fix the coin supply > > issue: get rid of the halving for testnet and just make every block create new > > coins. > > If such a change is made, then such a network won't be suitable to > test halvings and software behaviour related to halvings. I don't think that's very important. That's a very small part of what testnet is used for, and nothing stops people from using, say, regtest for that kind of testing. We already changed important consensus code around difficulty with testnet-specific behavior. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/dd1f43b7-bd02-4fe4-9d69-2fa398c99b4en%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_3035_1941323314.1712732243309 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > nothing stops people from using, say, regtest for that kind of testing= .

How can you test the scenario, where it is hard to get new coi= ns, and you have to get them from the current owners, by using regtest? If = the difficulty is absolutely minimal, and every second nonce gives you a va= lid block hash, then you don't have to worry about your hashrate, because y= ou can always produce a new block, and publish your tests, no matter what.<= br />
Also, if you have no difficulty adjustments, then you cannot rea= listically see your hashrate, even on your CPU. You have to apply a lot of = soft-forks on regtest, if you want to check those cases. And you cannot tes= t "getting coins from the current owners" either, because regtest is not sa= fe enough to be deployed online, and you have to soft-fork it into signet, = if you want to do so.

Which means, that if you want to test "how= the network could behave after many halvings", then testnet3 is a better c= hoice than regtest (which you cannot safely deploy online) or signet (which= have less halvings than even mainnet).

And in general, I think = it is a good idea, to have at least one test network, which will have more = halvings than the mainnet, so we can see in advance, what could happen, bef= ore those problems will hit the main network. By the way, when I think abou= t it now, then my conclusion is, that it would be nice, to even have a netw= ork, where timestamps are pushed forward, and for example we could see year= 2038 or year 2106 problem in some test network earlier, than on the mainne= t.

sunday, 31 march 2024 at 23:30:04 UTC+= 2 Peter Todd wrote:
On Sun, = Mar 31, 2024 at 06:01:51PM -0300, Nagaev Boris wrote:
> > If we fix the difficulty reset bug, we might as well also f= ix the coin supply
> > issue: get rid of the halving for testnet and just make eve= ry block create new
> > coins.
>=20
> If such a change is made, then such a network won't be suitable = to
> test halvings and software behaviour related to halvings.

I don't think that's very important. That's a very small part of what= testnet
is used for, and nothing stops people from using, say, regtest for th= at kind of
testing. We already changed important consensus code around difficult= y with
testnet-specific behavior.

--=20
= https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

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