From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E7ECF9B for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 11:14:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mx2.mailbox.org (mx2.mailbox.org [80.241.60.215]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 375B218A for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 11:14:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [80.241.60.241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx2.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6717540E55; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 12:14:21 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.241]) by gerste.heinlein-support.de (gerste.heinlein-support.de [91.198.250.173]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id thcuP-um-fXp; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 12:14:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 11:13:28 +0000 From: nullius To: =?utf-8?B?5pyo44OO5LiL44GY44KH44Gq?= , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Message-ID: References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tiyijc4s364zh5hl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:57:30 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 11:14:25 -0000 --tiyijc4s364zh5hl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=82= =87=E3=81=AA =20 wrote: >This is very sad. > >The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words. > >I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because=20 >he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for=20 >"amateur"... > >[...] > >If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain=20 >processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down. = =20 >Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for=20 >letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion. > >[...] > >Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to=20 >plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency. Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please,=20 let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot. I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust=20 *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this=20 down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in: =E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3= =82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81= =A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86 =E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3= =81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80= =80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82= =E3=81=A4 (Approximate translation: =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had be= en=20 invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D) No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking=20 about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2=80= =99s=20 savings on your ability to handwrite *this*: =E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= =80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82= =8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE= =E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3= =81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F =E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3= =81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81= =93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93= =E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3= =81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F =E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= =80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81= =8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D= =E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91 Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands? =20 No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the=20 inverse case. ---- If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many=20 Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then=20 think of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate=20 family and friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your = folks=20 needed to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80= =9D. In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at = all. A=20 =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly al= ien writing=20 system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. =20 The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D fo= r =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D,=20 was not dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the world=E2=80=99s most= =20 inefficient means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly. ---- I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=A5=E6= =9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an=20 appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese=20 users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages? I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the=20 greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent=20 implementations. =E2=80=94 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not sp= eak=20 all these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.* Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,=20 nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question. Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism=20 of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other=20 languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of=20 =E2=80=9CEnglish only!=E2=80=9D Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever=20 implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially=20 restricted to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a=20 standard called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordli= sts, and four=20 more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621). I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for=20 use with that standard. (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing. =20 I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I=20 thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually=20 fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should=20 go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!) --=20 nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested: 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE) =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth= ing to hide.=E2=80=99 No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94= nullius --tiyijc4s364zh5hl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYKAB0WIQSNOMR84IlYpr/EF5vEJ5MVn575SQUCWlNSWAAKCRDEJ5MVn575 SUsVAQD+Mf6VjbieemTuEBfuYFfXAj47tCqWWJHi+hbjIjT/ywEA28VRU3OR+4da jP7vdaMOc1gQwvJwuIggec0rBKHcpQY= =Nqo7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tiyijc4s364zh5hl--