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From: AdamISZ <AdamISZ@protonmail.com>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 15:04:58 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <f6FZEWGizm0HEqfu-CMgoj9maAHBgk1XUkniYjI81S3le2sMi8jFOMLXT3ANgmIGufJscI0--aJfXOcEFJq-9UHnixgcYlzO-kAx73ggqEI=@protonmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Y1HG0TyuppR0uC+X@petertodd.org>


------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 20th, 2022 at 23:08, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:


> On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 03:17:51AM +0000, alicexbt via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> 
> > > And the
> > > impression I got from the PR review club discussion more seemed like
> > > devs making assumptions about businesses rather than having talked to
> > > them (eg "[I] think there are fewer and fewer businesses who absolutely
> > > cannot survive without relying on zeroconf. Or at least hope so").
> > 
> > Even I noticed this since I don't recall the developers of the 3 main coinjoin implementations that are claimed to be impacted by opt-in RBF making any remarks.
> 
> 
> FYI I personally asked Max Hillebrand from Wasabi about full-rbf last night.
> He gave me permission to republish our conversation:
> 
> > Hey, I wanted to know if you had any comments on full-rbf re: wasabi?
> 
> 
> Doesn't really affect us, afaik
> The cj doesn't signal rbf right now
> And I guess it's a DoS vector if any input double spent will be relayed after successful signing
> But we have way bigger / cheaper DoS vectors that don't get "exploited"
> So probably doesn't matter
> Wasabi client handles replacements / reorgs gracefully, so should be alright
> We don't yet "use" rbf in the sense of fee bumping tx, but we should / will eventually
> 
> I haven't asked Joinmarket yet. But the impact on their implementation should
> be very similar.
> 

Hi Peter,

Re: Joinmarket
Yes, it's largely as you would expect. First, we did not ever signal opt-in RBF in coinjoins (it'd be nice if we had CPFP as a user-level tool in the wallet, to speed up low fee coinjoins, but nobody's done it).
Second, yes we have DOS vectors of the trivial kind based on non-protocol-completion (signatures) and RBF would be another one, I don't think it changes our security model at all really (coinjoins being atomic, intrinsically). Nothing in the logic of the protocol relies on unconfirmed txs. Maker *may* reannounce offers when they see broadcast but it's probabilistic (depends on distribution of funds in (BIP32) accounts), and they do / do not reannounce anyway for various reasons (reconnections on different message channels, confirmation of a coinjoin). We should probably take a new look at it if this becomes the norm but there shouldn't be any security issue.

Cheers,
AdamISZ/waxwing


  reply	other threads:[~2022-11-02 15:05 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 79+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-10-07 16:20 [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger Dario Sneidermanis
2022-10-07 17:21 ` David A. Harding
2022-10-07 17:28   ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-07 21:37   ` Dario Sneidermanis
2022-10-11 16:18     ` Pieter Wuille
2022-10-12  5:42     ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-12 16:11       ` Pieter Wuille
2022-10-12 21:44         ` Dario Sneidermanis
2022-10-13  4:35         ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-16  8:08           ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-17 14:25             ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-17 21:41             ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-18  7:00               ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-19  3:01                 ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-19  3:17                 ` alicexbt
2022-10-20 22:08                   ` Peter Todd
2022-11-02 15:04                     ` AdamISZ [this message]
2022-10-20 23:18                 ` Peter Todd
2022-11-09 13:19                 ` ArmchairCryptologist
2022-11-10  9:35                   ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-10-07 20:56 ` Luke Dashjr
2022-10-08 20:47 ` alicexbt
2022-10-13 16:07 ` linuxfoundation.cndm1
2022-10-14  2:44   ` alicexbt
2022-10-14 15:02     ` Peter Todd
2022-10-17 20:31 ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-17 22:14 ` Antoine Riard
     [not found] <mailman.7.1665662404.16405.bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
2022-10-14 10:03 ` John Carvalho
2022-10-14 15:04   ` Peter Todd
2022-10-14 16:28     ` Erik Aronesty
2022-10-15  4:08       ` John Carvalho
2022-10-15  4:20     ` John Carvalho
     [not found] <CABZBVTC5kh7ca3KhVkFPdQjnsPhP4Kun1k3K6cPkarrjUiTJpA@mail.gmail.com>
2022-10-19 14:29 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-19 14:45   ` Erik Aronesty
2022-10-19 15:43   ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-10-19 15:51     ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-19 16:04     ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-19 16:08       ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-20  1:37   ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-20 14:11     ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21  1:04       ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-20  4:05   ` Peter Todd
2022-10-21 19:35     ` Peter Todd
2022-10-20  7:22   ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-20 12:37     ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-20 14:14       ` Ruben Somsen
2022-10-20 14:17         ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-20 19:58       ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-20 21:05         ` David A. Harding
2022-10-20 21:07         ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-20 22:02           ` Eloy
2022-10-21 12:02           ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 14:01             ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-21 14:19               ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 14:47                 ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-21 19:43             ` Peter Todd
2022-10-24  7:55               ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-20 22:13         ` Peter Todd
2022-10-21  9:34           ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 19:33             ` Peter Todd
2022-10-24  7:45               ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 11:56         ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-23 19:20   ` David A. Harding
2022-10-23 20:51     ` alicexbt
2022-12-01 12:27 Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-01 22:03 ` Erik Aronesty
2022-12-02  6:34   ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-02  1:52 ` Antoine Riard
2022-12-02  6:59   ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-02  4:30 ` Peter Todd
2022-12-02  7:06   ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-03  8:50     ` Peter Todd
2022-12-03 11:01       ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-03 11:51         ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-03 12:12         ` Peter Todd
2022-12-03 13:17           ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-03 14:03             ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-05 12:21               ` angus
     [not found] <6342098B-A548-43C9-8F92-AAD9D0BB66AB@coinspaid.com>
2022-12-03 14:06 ` Daniel Lipshitz

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