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([2a01:cb1d:44:6500:9d6d:71b2:cb71:cb17]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k14sm11264486wrq.97.2020.06.05.03.10.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Jun 2020 03:10:16 -0700 (PDT) To: ZmnSCPxj , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , Gleb Naumenko References: <2e8fba65-f7fa-4c37-a318-222547e25a06@Spark> <9e4dfaa7-895a-48a1-8116-eaafc80da34f@Spark> <2phhD75B8ww3hFQ8Do039wAIlW8EVOjUeiedm-JtIek-TEnVocYSx-untchGrO3VoRLoPzinVAG95UN1yR3CadNWBJGSu19vJpFJ_yN-wZY=@protonmail.com> From: Aymeric Vitte Autocrypt: addr=vitteaymeric@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFdW8uABEAC7HJScbB2d/lmYoY5Cn9loEjJwfLs1LC3om030bWFGiH3Ceo5XeHUT94rw Pi+HaHU8ea94425SXIFsnqp/ouoT/8Ffn6vED0OoRmK0jE4fqDApXSpoL2mHX9PAGdUItMtD YrxBiBZNfMkctEsm4NrQ4TCvB3Yrm6Fc69inXJjUoYgPw5tHafEeI8Qwh0j99JZZDKcAqIra JF3MPc59rATz0qOJtRP9EpsPVFwjJe13zN6CHILwiVgrL8EtT5WKCVO6ATxh60LHi8+MwPxV V31zp/NNI5Hck+XocEMO98ZvUu9X8ZxmnOk/+9pBxXEwUqSGUNWdmPJLncpI23Usce3u/MOo M2C4T4rD4J0XrXiyBvbeTvwq4qVNlyggeWzlBH+YpEYgDctPq4gNh4eoTtAkf8URtBeke5bQ CGdaZt/jxv8nvmxs9V/iSyg5ldJLQktHStXOo0OZ7FEB2C6Ggtymm4hm2MHYg07Q1MGJrFLa oJZkJ3JeXnVsZMam7ypQtld6rRa96CvH+llXwux6aQ5hKdzmBBMQ10LlkZhkExgTawbeqdiG RMP2DjD5go6TPdAHS4NN34SBkrTWLqgWOjN/lnG77bbLnpMl0P+xBTuqw1oSXaDbcdHE2nGY lRno/ZZIfr+1Bq56DZLBX/WpnAT4f5WtofL4CxQM9SbG6byyewARAQABzSJBeW1lcmljIFZp dHRlIDxheW1lcmljQHBlZXJzbS5jb20+wsF/BBMBCAApBQJXVvLgAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQKh17NCYnrDm3WhAAlYmgtSmtfqjBvQMqkmtqiQJA aZkzFZWt6+zroduHH5/Tp8jh73gFqCUyRrl/kcKvs2+XQhfrOwk1R6OScF25bpnrZSeuyJnZ MZu4T0P2tGS8YdddQvWUHMtI9ZnQRuYmuZT23/hgj1JnukuGvGLeY0yDUa1xFffPN39shp5X FPMcpIVOV3bs+xjAdsyfRyO3qJAD1FGiR7ggJeoaxUbKZ6NtcVUPPRMjVTKfopkuDwKY318m BE0epfxSZ/iRhsJ0/sREUWgbgq4/QvCFwBKzgz7fTikGmf8OELWSdofmXs7gOtmMc3el8fJu W8PVa/OsIQHDmwSzvxmE8ba5M8bdwOYEraTWFArIymAAtRXKxmuYpkqKfeSlbCwae3W+pgNT 8nKYRVAFlMtIxYkmPYyMTk9kCscmSqugGWbWdnqe/dhVaa31xa1qO1tDH24D2/tjCJRQt4Jk AEWNSmjCmjfeArMEFTGlZwMTAjVXErLSPbLOsZiZhD9sjvSbfzrtJiMli2h9+Dvds+AJk1PM O8LW7cCNyFoCk4OdAxzJHobZ25G+uy4NSQEHgxLC2iuh/tugz1tOHnQczPc/3AkVVI9A5DF1 gbVRBJh6rI7sAcwuR76uoOs0Rpp7r6I66xqU/5eq8g1OsJp89tw0ppSIa0YmaxNqQZ0l3rVX o/ZwpBjtNQTOwU0EV1by4AEQANhlz3Ywff4dY1HTdn05v0wVUxZzW2PUih+96m6EhpUrD9BT vxriKtbgxm/zl+5YAlThbrk9f0QyVTHJ95Z1/M5qjuksP9Zn3qZ/8ylANDkN2s3z8Bq/LJA+ u7+APhMqyFWK0FqNCOogClvijiKPEzkU6tmDGO6wZ5pR/u8Fdq7DGQgwgyGZZc7qstte0M7l yx7bVRlPBqvd6kyX3YubQHzkctf46nFjiYZgKawdWFsA3PCdSBupbhixL5d/t1UK9ZTiQJcf 0uhHzT06qwolFrm/ugkLDHtE4Zo3BuKch47Sms8P2hJ08gABxeJHg0ZgkIUy/Xf4nHbDCBJw T8tE8pWYWA2ECiPNo0TOCMVOueEzISUNKINfCuFHSbMQU39hgt3ofxODbAjOiO3e/iu1ptck AkuVBdtjOBP4tHRGxVrbf5EuAV5U5xtiSxMwMgojg0GIXZjnT/8uvWqcLqtJILRMmmu+WNvD oxuiJzcTJhDai9oujmxQwcpMvgrBB89KSTDyitO5XVjZqaR7Zxvvn3rM4bAms/lotv9+pTyh spazTIxb80u0ifJ6y1RxAkxQCfWwps1i3VbsM6OKX78aUyOf5V4ihXF57M37tOqPRwFvz6a+ AIIhUNMTLo2H+o6Vw9qbX8SUxPHPs6YpJ8lWQJ9OMWHE+SbaDFAi/D5hYRubABEBAAHCwWUE GAEIAA8FAldW8uACGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQKh17NCYnrDmk4Q/9Fuu0h5HvIiO3ieYA2StdE7hO vv2THuesjJDsj6aQUTgknaxKptJogNe3dDyIT+FHxXmCw0Nrbm9Q3ryl80z/G9utfFNO3Gwc q31QW3n3LJHnpqdrV3WsRzT5NwJMVtiIAGRrX8ZomtarWHT0PeEHC2xBdFzRrJtmkrwer0Wc 0nBzD7vk1XEXC9nODbmlgsesoHFgRwQBst3wClCbX1gv8aSfxQNpaf9UBC8DmyrQ621UXpBo PvcFEtWxV44vJfP0WOLCCN0Pzv2F2I66iKo7VMqbr5jlNAXJN9I1hXb7qwYJmBC9j5oeEoqv A9d44WWpxrdAr8qih4Nv89k9+9F6NoqORY3FGuVDKiW8CVhCmGT7bIvNeyicVBZFipXqPcKL VFduO2c5Ubc2npMWLUF1k9JJc9tH75l3+F/0RbYVTzGAZ+zSaudwR6h8YiCN2DBZGZkJEZbh 3X/l6jtijMN/W9sPHyyKvm/TmeEC27S3TqZPZ8PUQLxZC70V6gMbenh01JdSQsn5t8Ru0RNh Blt0g7IyZyIKCE9b+TyzbYpX6qgqEBUHia5b0vyPtQacWQlZ8uqnghAqNkLluEsy7Q/7xG6M wXUYEDsFOmB9dKOzcAOIhpxlVjSKu5mzXJ11sEtE8nyF5NJ/riCA7FGcjlki3zIpzQUNo9v7 vXl2h6Tivlk= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:10:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2phhD75B8ww3hFQ8Do039wAIlW8EVOjUeiedm-JtIek-TEnVocYSx-untchGrO3VoRLoPzinVAG95UN1yR3CadNWBJGSu19vJpFJ_yN-wZY=@protonmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8BAE6BBD95013BBD1152F83E" Content-Language: fr Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Time-dilation Attacks on the Lightning Network X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 10:10:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8BAE6BBD95013BBD1152F83E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Le 04/06/2020 à 04:58, ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev a écrit : >> [Tor is tricky](https://arxiv.org/abs/1410.6079) too > Since the issue here is that eclipsing of Bitcoin nodes is risky, it strikes me that a mitigation would be to run your Bitcoin fullnode on clearnet while running your Lightning node over Tor. > Eclipsing the Lightning node (but not the Bitcoin fullnode it depends on) "only" loses you the ability to pay, receive, or route (and thereby earn forwarding fees), but as long as your blockchain view is clear, it should be fine. > > Of course, the Lightning node could still be correlated with the Bitcoin node when transactions are broadcast with the attached Bitcoin node (as noted in the paper). > Instead the Lightning node should probably connect, over Tor, to some random Bitcoin fullnodes / Electrum servers and broadcast txes to them. > > And this seems to tie with what you propose: that the LN node should use a different view-fullnode from the broadcast-fullnode. > The issue each time there are discussions/research linking to Tor is that it is biased since the beginning because based on a wrong postulate: using the Tor network I will not elaborate on this again, it's an obvious very bad idea to use the Tor network for bitcoin It's not a bad idea to use the Tor protocol with no story of exit nodes and hidden services, linking again to: https://github.com/Ayms/node-Tor#phase-4-and-phase-5 And new link: http://www.peersm.com/Convergence-2020.pdf "A universal and generic architecture to anonymize any application or protocol and turn it into an independent decentralized p2p network inside browsers and servers, with browsers acting as servers" LN and bitcoin nodes would be relays and/or RDV points and/or clients and serving parties, some Tor network nodes could be used in the middle also (relays only) but in any case sybils/eclipse attacks become much more difficult to perform (or unlikely depending on how the peer discovery system is designed) bitcoin | node-Tor |bitcoin and LN.pipe(node-Tor) Then question for possible future tests: is there a simple way to pipe the bitcoin protocol via stdin/stdout? (the socks interface could be used but we already saw that it did raise issues) -- Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org Peersm : http://www.peersm.com torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms --------------8BAE6BBD95013BBD1152F83E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


Le 04/06/2020 à 04:58, ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev a écrit :
[Tor is tricky](https://arxiv.org/abs/1410.6079) too

Since the issue here is that eclipsing of Bitcoin nodes is risky, it strikes me that a mitigation would be to run your Bitcoin fullnode on clearnet while running your Lightning node over Tor.
Eclipsing the Lightning node (but not the Bitcoin fullnode it depends on) "only" loses you the ability to pay, receive, or route (and thereby earn forwarding fees), but as long as your blockchain view is clear, it should be fine.

Of course, the Lightning node could still be correlated with the Bitcoin node when transactions are broadcast with the attached Bitcoin node (as noted in the paper).
Instead the Lightning node should probably connect, over Tor, to some random Bitcoin fullnodes / Electrum servers and broadcast txes to them.

And this seems to tie with what you propose: that the LN node should use a different view-fullnode from the broadcast-fullnode.


The issue each time there are discussions/research linking to Tor is that it is biased since the beginning because based on a wrong postulate: using the Tor network

I will not elaborate on this again, it's an obvious very bad idea to use the Tor network for bitcoin

It's not a bad idea to use the Tor protocol with no story of exit nodes and hidden services, linking again to: https://github.com/Ayms/node-Tor#phase-4-and-phase-5

And new link: http://www.peersm.com/Convergence-2020.pdf "A universal and generic architecture to anonymize any application or protocol and turn it into an independent decentralized p2p network inside browsers and servers, with browsers acting as servers"

LN and bitcoin nodes would be relays and/or RDV points and/or clients and serving parties, some Tor network nodes could be used in the middle also (relays only) but in any case sybils/eclipse attacks become much more difficult to perform (or unlikely depending on how the peer discovery system is designed)

bitcoin | node-Tor |bitcoin and LN.pipe(node-Tor)

Then question for possible future tests: is there a simple way to pipe the bitcoin protocol via stdin/stdout? (the socks interface could be used but we already saw that it did raise issues)


    
-- 
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions
Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets
Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms

  


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