From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E39C0037 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2024 18:02:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D57E40281 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2024 18:02:58 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 1D57E40281 Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=pm.me header.i=@pm.me header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=protonmail3 header.b=kWNsSuk7 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mc3wujMhHOqH for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2024 18:02:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-40133.protonmail.ch (mail-40133.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.133]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA0AD40219 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2024 18:02:56 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org EA0AD40219 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pm.me; s=protonmail3; t=1704477774; x=1704736974; bh=ZjODuOrxA//VDoD5QjEJoizHiQ3oat1mGX5EuyyH2D0=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=kWNsSuk7zfqLlSmSE/jHCdiLLQ/RI2wLSeniEpE2jmQPQW5hpVaQaDnA7SnuQ2LHZ SenYESUzCvoc+GuzpLzfT6xUTI5c1aY0vMzmMbldJla5XjvWXveWVKpfhZBcpJaPfp MgPOCG3MxH9bRcJPzuEJ7pc2ltMHGsAUhvtgOoT2WiMlR94+xbyggx/29p1dyfMXO6 LKutEPaydsB3NO0FlZkUEbCfy/9gMCtN8+geyZzciph1sR6gttX+6ydrVUxGBCxoCZ Hep433lyKR0Vw1QiAgtDL4RExqMRouWr1wncxEYRlBc5Ep0RSeROPlFc3F8DpkI9IM /bBlEiXV61JwA== Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 18:02:39 +0000 To: "David A. Harding" From: yurisvb@pm.me Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <6068d3536339704f3621894b2ba0daa8@dtrt.org> Feedback-ID: 15605746:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="------fa44a534e0332c30c778cadcb6aa94d40aaf4fcdd66f214cc59853f3961046a6"; charset=utf-8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 20:45:24 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Lamport scheme (not signature) to economize on L1 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 18:02:58 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------fa44a534e0332c30c778cadcb6aa94d40aaf4fcdd66f214cc59853f3961046a6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary=---------------------5366da5ba2fcc47bca2180d9a14ea798 -----------------------5366da5ba2fcc47bca2180d9a14ea798 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Dear friends and colleagues, I believe this current version of the protocol and its documentation, now = including a diagram answers the questions raised so far: https://github.com/Yuri-SVB/LVBsig/blob/main/docs/white_paper.md All in all, in addition to the plain transaction TXi, only 36 bytes are ne= eded to authenticate it. The number falls to 16 in case of address (addres= s chain) is reused, because change address coincides with Lamport-scheme p= re-image. YSVB. Sent with Proton Mail secure email. On Monday, January 1st, 2024 at 11:17 AM, yurisvb@pm.me wr= ote: > Hello, Dave, > = > I'm afraid I didn't understand your objection. It would be great to have= a direct, real-time conversation with you, if you have the availability. = Be my guest to DM me for that. > = > Though this is to be confirmed, I suspect my proposed scheme can be impl= emented with available, existing Bitcoin infrastructure. As far as my limi= ted knowledge goes, the trickiest part would be to have miners agree that = pre-image of hash of a transaction, in a subsequent block is acceptable au= thentication. As for the commitment, it could be implemented as ordinary s= mart contracts are, and its size doesn't matter because in the normal use = case, it is not mined. > = > To be clear: The only component that is mined other than addresses and t= he plaintext transactions would be one hash, between 16 and 20 bytes. From= the No-Free-Lunch Principle, the cost for it is that transaction takes a = few blocks, instead of just one to be validated. > = > YSVB > = > Sent with Proton Mail secure email. > = > = > On Sunday, December 31st, 2023 at 8:33 PM, David A. Harding dave@dtrt.or= g wrote: > = > = > = > > Hi Yuri, > > = > > I think it's worth noting that for transactions with an equal number o= f > > P2TR keypath spends (inputs) and P2TR outputs, the amount of space use= d > > in a transaction by the serialization of the signature itself (16 vbyt= es > > per input) ranges from a bit over 14% of transaction size (1-input, > > 1-output) to a bit less than 16% (10,000-in, 10,000-out; a ~1 MvB tx). > > I infer that to mean that the absolute best a signature replacement > > scheme can do is free up 16% of block space. > > = > > An extra 16% of block space is significant, but the advantage of that > > savings needs to be compared to the challenge of creating a highly pee= r > > reviewed implementation of the new signature scheme and then convincin= g > > a very large number of Bitcoin users to accept it. A soft fork proposa= l > > that introduces new-to-Bitcoin cryptography (such as a different hash > > function) will likely need to be studied for a prolonged period by man= y > > experts before Bitcoin users become confident enough in it to trust > > their bitcoins to it. A hard fork proposal has the same challenges as = a > > soft fork, plus likely a large delay before it can go into effect, and > > it also needs to be weighed against the much easier process it would b= e > > for experts and users to review a hard fork that increased block > > capacity by 16% directly. > > = > > I haven't fully studied your proposal (as I understand you're working = on > > an improved version), but I wanted to put my gut feeling about it into > > words to offer feedback (hopefully of the constructive kind): I think > > the savings in block space might not be worth the cost in expert revie= w > > and user consensus building. > > = > > That said, I love innovative ideas about Bitcoin and this is one I wil= l > > remember. If you continue working on it, I very much look forward to > > seeing what you come up with. If you don't continue working on it, I > > believe you're likely to think of something else that will be just as > > exciting, if not more so. > > = > > Thanks for innovating!, > > = > > -Dave -----------------------5366da5ba2fcc47bca2180d9a14ea798 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; filename="publickey - yurisvb@pm.me - 0x535F445D.asc"; name="publickey - yurisvb@pm.me - 0x535F445D.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="publickey - yurisvb@pm.me - 0x535F445D.asc"; name="publickey - yurisvb@pm.me - 0x535F445D.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgUFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCgp4c0JOQkYySmpSWUJDQUM1MXlo K0s0MmF0c0V5MGdCTmgvaklXR1hzQnRFLzdJOGFuUmZkZTcvcWdHeXkKbEx4TXFZRE1OelUwN3c5 Z3VINllKRDdWdzNaUmxTVGVqNU9Hc2laOFJ2OUp4YXBYc0MxeDMrdHhOQkFQClYyVml1MVpsMnhK Y29sTDkrem9SUmhmU25lVDVaZm1IQlpBSklKbmhOdU80ajhrRi9iNDRFaEZ3NkwvTgpGbE9rK1VC SkVvS0FFQWttd09aWWpVTDd6MStRdzJBZkJIVGVwNFMzYmY4SmZMNDFOUVJsRnBSa3MrSkMKTjNa c0ozZmZhNURjWjVqTGgyK2k5Mlg2eE8yVW5nM0hLYXhJYTVtbzB3cGVvQ1JQdUxNRjE2cjVQelJ4 CjJmNldzZVlUbWVmZWVYUGUzZEhyTTR4ai9ndHpBRGNxaFd6VVZLM21ZNTdPTXhVYjJ4MWdqZ1Z6 QUJFQgpBQUhOSFhsMWNtbHpkbUpBY0cwdWJXVWdQSGwxY21semRtSkFjRzB1YldVK3dzQjFCQkFC Q0FBZkJRSmQKaVkwV0Jnc0pCd2dEQWdRVkNBb0NBeFlDQVFJWkFRSWJBd0llQVFBS0NSQXYzelY4 UzhOTVZkTkRCLzlRCnZRRlpZNkRzR3FMOTlkKzI2QjdHYmRCb0VjenUxL2NqTVpNdE9QeW9nSElF eXllalR3R1RVN3ZYNEpWZQozRHZnbnd4U2xIYjQ2dDU2VGV3OU5rZ2V4MmFIb0hGRnJBd3MraTVa ajdZN2lhL2l2RVozZE1KR3dNSUoKeVlQS08rdG1ockxNYWlSSFdnUnhtSG5mRnhUY1dFQ1dSZEk3 dDRJWFp3Rm9QN2Z3TVVVVXQrV3NTbzJSCnJhUVZEL3NTL2F2TlF5T2h6YTlLcVBQNjBZY3B2RUtj UXArL2hyTjRRcFhVSkxiaDFZMVlqeUhlbDhnQgpRa3p2QzUwUjVxTzRlY2xxSy9FMEhESnlDWmZN TThkV2o0REJrTWN2SzlsYjB5b3ZRMDFFTXp1NkU1NEcKYjZ0VFp1bktQTVpVd1J1SW5FY0hHMjV0 azdWUEM4clJTU0hqeDhTT3pzQk5CRjJKalJZQkNBQ3RiUWdNCldRSnMvTVdZbDR2THRLSlhYbFlS T2h1YkVWbjRjTFdZSmVFWHpzSllCQWRlNWh0QlEzc212UjJ2NnVJegptejJpaXFsSkVVdmYwY2xM WS9QVExoSGVTbWE5VTRodzRaRDNZKzV6WWxINURza2l1N3lLZTdIVmpEVmkKd1FJN25acWRvanJs dDhCZENiOVNMaXRNaFRvR1crS2E1VCtUOWNmbWthMk1qa3pRSFBNTEJtdVJ6a2V2ClBkZFF6M0xB MjMzZDNHREVTZklCYy91OC9YelBUNkZTZ3MzSEh4OEFJbFdQbEJaYmh6WmpQNlRLclRNRQpOSEtK cmxTRlZKclErL25QU28ya0VSL0VDczF0aUJEY0JkamVPYWx6LzdRVWN0Rnp3NGdjS0RtMGpUeEkK cVhWVlV3a2tuRkM4NDZMTjNBT2p0UWRyOVV3czVsTzhkeXBGQUJFQkFBSEN3RjhFR0FFSUFBa0ZB bDJKCmpSWUNHd3dBQ2drUUw5ODFmRXZEVEZXS2VBZ0FxRXN1QXJMZFprYXBvZDI3K2hpcHZZNUcr eVRLQW1NMApIVlhmQzJiMVdtNXQwQXhOVXVkMlJ1OTE1MHA3V09CRXpXYkxnNXdzOTc1M296dlZi cFpIQU9uVGZOeXoKUUR5QWhmZ1hNQjIvdzRERXEwT2tlQVBRNXhsQWtISDZpUW1hSkZiYy9FRjRX ZWZWeE92MnNRNDlRNks5Ci9Bb1FROG54RVh1RzRidXVrclEwTGVlTVAzNEdMWUhYK2JvWENHQmxI MGhiZm5kc3VQbEdqYnBnWVErdQplclJGTlB4N1JtSWtnQjJ0WmhwZkZ3VGtid1c2TVFmWDM5Z3F1 SitwVEVKUnA5UmpJVjFZU2txSjZJUkgKQkc4eFBocGgzT3huaWJyWkdlbGdtakpNM2QwM1k5OSs3 OXBvdTRlY09BeWYyTHMrMVVTY2NDTzA2YnI4CldlcjJ3cmI0WXc9PQo9aHJheAotLS0tLUVORCBQ R1AgUFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCg== -----------------------5366da5ba2fcc47bca2180d9a14ea798-- --------fa44a534e0332c30c778cadcb6aa94d40aaf4fcdd66f214cc59853f3961046a6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail wsBzBAEBCAAnBYJlmEQeCZAv3zV8S8NMVRYhBFNfRF3t6Z4/pmFJQy/fNXxL w0xVAACaLgf+PEpFYArSZVd7Fp4s6TClZv7pCibMBw+h1+fTBH8BNrLko2XR yWN2yq0uf3V/AFPWz183eUHHxNXzNevtS7wGlpys78nZqMte8gfRo2Pje4eC XIz+zvVIZFoU+Vgs8sTleoF/a3w4z1qlyOHdkuJSb3fnn9aqxdebHXvmoXBJ XRH045TQ0rlr4YVjkJN5nMbUc92ixTqTQqCnMCp8ebx6V6YSw6mEkYSIANDl Hfzlb+MoQzSD5PIGriBlD6C9Jih/7xoFvoXi5u0vRSHsWbIziCP7UJJZlWWJ dPMjMhF/S6f5SPxe7Z+oUj9hBrlahN/7sSifp6vJpaB43rCGSK8XZA== =DTGv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------fa44a534e0332c30c778cadcb6aa94d40aaf4fcdd66f214cc59853f3961046a6--