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[109.224.244.17]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6a1803df08f44-6fb09b034b5si4666856d6.4.2025.06.10.10.15.28 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 10 Jun 2025 10:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 109.224.244.17 as permitted sender) client-ip=109.224.244.17; Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 17:15:20 +0000 To: Sjors Provoost From: "'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Cc: James O'Beirne , Andrew Poelstra , "David A. Harding" , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0B7CEBEE-FB2B-41CF-9347-B9C1C246B94D@sprovoost.nl> References: <195051b7c393b9a28727e87647ac002b@dtrt.org> <0B7CEBEE-FB2B-41CF-9347-B9C1C246B94D@sprovoost.nl> Feedback-ID: 7060259:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 9cc483370304845453dde63a2685b15b1ee82ea3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: darosior@protonmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b="WH/o/77Y"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 109.224.244.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=darosior@protonmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com X-Original-From: Antoine Poinsot Reply-To: Antoine Poinsot Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > From both your and Andrew's mail we can distill a relevant factor: pretty= much everyone who is excited about (feature) soft forks is not working on = Bitcoin Core. This is incorrect. I am excited about potential extensions to Bitcoin's scr= ipting capabilities. I know at least Greg Sanders and Anthony Towns have sh= own interest, given their substantial contributions in this area. You are s= howing interest too, and i know others are interested. This is plenty of in= dividuals that are both interested in "feature" soft forks and contributing= to the Bitcoin Core project. I won't take the bait into responding to people breaking Chatham House rule= to steer political drama. But the reason for the lack of progress of these= proposals and others is not to be found with Core contributors. On Tuesday, June 10th, 2025 at 1:03 PM, Sjors Provoost = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi James, >=20 > From both your and Andrew's mail we can distill a relevant factor: pretty= much everyone who is excited about (feature) soft forks is not working on = Bitcoin Core. >=20 > A few, such as yourself and Jeremy, were in the past but stopped doing so= . >=20 > Although trying to persuade more people inside the project to review and = further develop these proposals is useful - methods and tone tbd - also con= sider the opposite: convince more people who want these changes to start co= ntributing to Bitcoin Core. >=20 > Perhaps there should be grants specifically for people working on this, b= ecause as you point out it's quite the uphill battle and rebase hell. That'= s even true for proposals with broad support inside the project, just ask A= ntoine Poinsot what experience led him to (temporarily) rage-close BIP54 [0= ]. >=20 > There are of course two downsides to that approach: >=20 > 1. It takes years to ramp up. The best time to plant a tree is ten years = ago. But it's been six years and multiple developers could have been ramped= up by now. To be fair, grant budgets were pretty tight until only two year= s ago.[1] >=20 > 2. As a new developer becomes familiar with the project, they develop the= ir own list of priorities which may no longer include the soft fork they we= re originally excited about. >=20 > Both can be overcome and if the industry is serious about these proposals= they should allocate such resources. This sounds like a cop-out: >=20 > > Many of the signers are builders capable of evaluating the proposals, >=20 > but don't necessarily have the time to opine on Delving threads or write > prototypes because they are, well, building things for actual end use. >=20 > With grants one does have to careful to not create an incentive where the= new developer has to achieve soft fork activation at all cost. Too much of= that will lead to massive friction and burn them out very quickly, as Mike= Hearn, Gavin Andresen and Jeff Garzik can probably attest. I don't how to = best encode "don't put too much ego in your proposal, it will be your undoi= ng" in a grant contract. >=20 > --- >=20 > Let me also speak a bit to my own motivation. Vaults appear to be the onl= y feature enabled by the proposal that I personally find important enough t= o work on. >=20 > Bear in mind that my main priority in these six months is getting Stratum= v2 readiness in v30 [2], in order to end the situation Poelstra described,= and to ensure Bitcoin Core is no longer a bottleneck: >=20 > > and yet if you want to mine from your local node on a local miner >=20 > today you need to run Sjors' personal fork of the project plus two > other daemons. >=20 > Congestion control seems highly premature, Lightning works well enough fo= r me, which makes me less motivated to look into LN-Symmetry - though I'm h= appy to test a working demo. I don't see an urgent need for alternative L2 = systems. >=20 > Up until quite recently it seemed to me that the momentum for vaults was = in OP_VAULT, which in turn would require OP_CTV. But a single purpose op co= de is not ideal, so this project didn't seem to be going anywhere. >=20 > I only realised yesterday that the vaults enabled by just CTV are much mo= re ergonomic than I assumed, so I'll (continue to) look into CTV from that = perspective [4]. >=20 > A fully fleshed out shielded CSV demo is another thing that would motivat= e me to review things. That actually helps with a very serious problem: pri= vacy. >=20 > That's why I would prefer a more powerful soft fork, conditional on peopl= e doing a proper analysis on the MeVil issue - instead of the current strat= egy of avoiding it. I'd get my vaults, and the BitVM folks can have at it, = hopefully with less crazy transactions. >=20 > Or is CTV + CSFS enough for that? My naive impression is that CCV + CAT += 64 bit arithmetic would be much more useful there, allowing a bridge witho= ut BitVM. But maybe it's a good enough start? I suppose Poelstra co-signed = for a reason :-) >=20 > Conversely, I don't oppose CTV + CSFS; I haven't seen an argument that th= ey're harmful. Since there's little MeVil potential, I could also imagine o= ther developers carefully developing and rolling out these changes. I would= just keep an eye on the process. >=20 > What I would oppose is a Python based alternative implementation and acti= vation client like co-signer Paul Sztorc proposed.[3] >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Sjors >=20 > [0] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1800#issuecomment-2836126414 > [1] https://opensats.org/blog/opensats-receives-additional-funding-of-dol= lar10m-from-startsmall > [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/31098 > [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DImUCulfr1cE > [4] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-vault-output-descriptor/1766 >=20 >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde= v/0B7CEBEE-FB2B-41CF-9347-B9C1C246B94D%40sprovoost.nl. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. 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