From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from fraxinus.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F93C013A for ; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 01:15:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fraxinus.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD9586C20 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 01:15:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from fraxinus.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nA_MoF66bIFO for ; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 01:15:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-40133.protonmail.ch (mail-40133.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.133]) by fraxinus.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 116A786B96 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 01:15:23 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 01:15:12 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=wuille.net; s=protonmail2; t=1612574119; bh=64l8ZtPA1+AupHARZELB8uTTI6P/wbFOc2+YyQ4qhUw=; h=Date:To:From:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=EClJQtDFVFgeIWxu5KnXi1boDiPx629WnHZ0dqnmY6y253xC/iPxOcjd5b4tLqQa7 YhBCIYe+s+nYglqGpE0fE1CdZyK8aUhEgsXZquTr7ML1ZvqA3NMjDoOUjn8bvDZwDN 1XhEfFgJ3hGT4gPzRkN87mnpdPxsgQQPEJs9G3X8nwFq/NH0UIIupMTybOQUy37yrl Szl+ywCTtFIjcEcOxQTa05jnoScM4/loy9CWXrCY/DCU7YX8AGqbIj9bdIJEdK/mRU UE0WfK9aloAlQ8A9BT0ce1Izz86cMBDVmIcM8uLwa6JSKjHTKylpr5BDmNQkDK0VjU +CaQhJWxELnxQ== To: Dr Maxim Orlovsky , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion From: Pieter Wuille Reply-To: Pieter Wuille Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP32/43-based standard for Schnorr signatures & decentralized identity X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 01:15:25 -0000 On Friday, February 5, 2021 9:51 AM, Dr Maxim Orlovsky via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Hi, > > Background > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Had a discussion last night in Bitcoin Core IRC with Peter Wuille on diff= erent topics regarding key derivations, security, key tweaks in context of = Schnorr signatures & Taproot. Would like to share some action points and pl= ans that emerged from there: > > 1. There is a real need for BIP-43 based new BIP with a new purpose fiel= d for keys used in Schnorr signatures. Peter will not do it (he is not very= much interested in spending his time on wallet-level stuff), so someone el= se should. > 2. Keys used in Schnorr signatures MUST NEVER BE used in ECDSA signature= s, otherwise there is a risk of private key leak via correlation attack. Th= is is rationale behind N1. Hi Maxim, thanks for bringing up this discussion here. I'd like to clarify a few thin= gs though, as I think the above is formulated far too strongly. There are two issues here: (1) reasons to avoid reusing the same key for pr= ivacy reasons, and (2) reasons to avoid using related keys for cryptographi= c reasons. And in practice, solutions to the first (which we already need, = unrelated to Taproot/Schnorr) mean the second is largely moot. # Don't reuse keys for privacy/organizational reasons. Reusing the same key in Bitcoin scripts - for use in distinct signature sch= emes or not - should always be avoided. It has obvious privacy implications= ; I don't think this is controversial, and it's a problem that exists today= , unrelated to Taproot. E.g. you don't want to reuse the same keys as both = single-sig and participation in multisig. My personal view here is that distinct standard derivation paths help with = this in the simple cases, but they're not a full solution in the most gener= al case. E.g. if you want to use one seed/root to participate in multiple s= ets of multisig policies, you'll need some kind of index to assign to each = anyway. For this reason in general I prefer solutions that explicitly track= what path is used for what. # Don't use related keys for cryptographic reasons There are some concerns to address here, but I want to make it clear there = are no known attacks against usage of related keys across ECDSA and Schnorr= , and I don't expect there will be. However, there is probably no proof for= this, and creating one may be tricky. On the other hand, the ecosystem (Bi= tcoin, but also many other applications) has accepted ECDSA long ago, while= it had no security proofs whatsoever (and even the ones that exist now rel= y on fairly unusual assumption; a proof for security of mixed Schnorr/ECDSA= usage would inherently need equally unusual assumptions too). Now, as soon as a hardened derivation separates different uses there is no = concern at all. So any solution for avoiding key reuse (section above) that= works by assigning (implicitly or explicitly) different hardened derivatio= n paths (as BIP43 etc. do) to different uses implies there is never any con= cern about related keys across Schnorr/ECDSA. If the keys are not separated by a hardened step, it's more complicated. Lo= oking at the different cases: (1) Signing with related ECDSA keys (e.g. two unhardened child keys from th= e same xpub) - This is very common on BIP32 usage today, so hopefully it is secure! Tim = Ruffing pointed me today to https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3= -030-36938-5_8 whose abstract seems to indicate they prove this is actually= secure, but I don't know under what assumptions. Note that the comment the= re about Schnorr not having this property does not apply to BIP340, because= it uses key-prefixed Schnorr. (2) Signing with related Schnorr keys. - I believe this is secure simply because BIP340 challenges commit to the p= ubkey (key prefixing), and thus a signature on one shouldn't teach you anyt= hing about others. A formal proof is probably a bit longer, but still trivi= al to construct. (3) The real question: signing with a Schnorr key that is related to an ECD= SA key. - I don't expect that this is easy to prove, but I have a very hard time im= agining how it could be exploitable, given the use of domain-separated hash= es. Aspects such as BIP340's key prefixing and the fact that Bitcoin sighas= hes indirectly commit to the (set of) signing pubkeys make it even harder. # TL;DR * For privacy reasons, you should use separate keys/derivation branches for= different uses in all circumstances (duh). * To stay within the realm of provably security it's advisable to make sure= ECDSA key and Schnorr keys use distinct hardened derivation steps. * Even if you don't, you're really just back to the level of assurance we h= ad about unhardened BIP32 ECDSA keys before a proof was known (which I thin= k most people aren't even aware of). Cheers, -- Pieter