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[185.70.43.166]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 2adb3069b0e04-530bba13e66si47193e87.7.2024.08.01.22.08.07 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 01 Aug 2024 22:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of hashnoncemessage@proton.me designates 185.70.43.166 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.70.43.166; Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 05:08:02 +0000 To: Jimmy Song From: "'hashnoncemessage' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Cc: Keagan McClelland , =?utf-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9_Edil_Guimar=C3=A3es_de_Medeiros?= , Richard Greaser , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] HODL Tax Proposal Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7549b5e885e7n@googlegroups.com> Feedback-ID: 100417686:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 04a9207dbdc36aa5075d5b55f2f12d078c355c9e MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1_Vad7TF5Id4626KUrWO3KCSLYEz02NkxrjqlAvtrtg" X-Original-Sender: hashnoncemessage@proton.me X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@proton.me header.s=pxulxxppjnarfcghtmdsvq5hyi.protonmail header.b=SA3No3wb; spf=pass (google.com: domain of hashnoncemessage@proton.me designates 185.70.43.166 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hashnoncemessage@proton.me; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=proton.me X-Original-From: hashnoncemessage Reply-To: hashnoncemessage Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --b1_Vad7TF5Id4626KUrWO3KCSLYEz02NkxrjqlAvtrtg Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable obvious troll is obvious thanks dick greaser > Like Paul Sztorc's previous proposals, this one has zero negative trade o= ffs. okay i lolled On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 03:19, Jimmy Song <[jaejoon@gmail.com](mailto:On Fri= , Aug 2, 2024 at 03:19, Jimmy Song < wrote: > For those that haven't figured this out yet, the name on the original pro= posal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bitcoin Bugle, a satirical "news"= site. He's trolling the list. > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland wrote: > >> Hypothetically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy where= in they consider the age of the utxo being spent and factor that into the f= eerate they consider when accepting the transaction into their block templa= te. However this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can choose to not = take this into consideration when making the choice to mine the transaction= or not. If enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could end up with a d= e-facto demurrage tax. This also means that you can do this without a conse= nsus fork if there was appetite for it. >> >> However, I suspect there will be extreme resistance to this proposal and= it is unlikely that miners would intentionally leave otherwise-good fees o= n the table simply because they want to play prisoners dilemma games where = they lose fees to the competition. >> >> Keags >> >> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de = Medeiros wrote: >> >>> Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoi= n thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted t= o stress the concept. >>> >>> Since the value "tokens" in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from transac= tions that have not been spent in another transaction, and since the sole p= urpose of the utxos are to atomically serve as input to a subsequent transa= ction, how do you proposed to "tax" them? >>> >>> I mean, let's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simp= le p2pkh transaction with the address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean t= o authorize it as an input to a new transaction. In principle, that can onl= y be done by me producing a valid signature using a private key. >>> >>> Let's say I'm one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax= to be implemented? >>> >>> All the best. >>> >>> -- >>> E... >>> >>>> On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Greaser w= rote: >>> >>>> =EF=BB=BFHi everyone, >>>> >>>> It has become apparent to me that there is an issue where users of the= network holding their coins, are not adding value to the network. >>>> As miners continue to get squeezed post halving, they would benefit tr= emendously from fees being taken from individuals refusing to move their co= ins, providing increased security to the network. >>>> >>>> I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attached below. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/= msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7549b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com](= https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7549b5= e885e7n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter). >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/m= sgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F00823A94C3D%40gmail.com](https://g= roups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F00823A94C3D%40= gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter). >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/ms= gid/bitcoindev/CALeFGL2ngsRd3N%2B8L7u9ZLNQB084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail= .gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CALeFGL2ngsRd3N%2B= 8L7u9ZLNQB084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm= _source=3Dfooter). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/msg= id/bitcoindev/CAJR7vkqSLkLDv%2By8D%2BaFC4pFDbtSmfrppyd5gMqG9fK_QTu6rw%40mai= l.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJR7vkqSLkLDv%2B= y8D%2BaFC4pFDbtSmfrppyd5gMqG9fK_QTu6rw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&= utm_source=3Dfooter). --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/oc8cflA0txTPabsX0Xmc6QBHFHKQyQrXG5LbieiT4Z77jDQ-lJ_BiLyVK7-_pqXa= _n6w1ZCvyVXHpKO4X16_4oKgbGVzwD133J0uziAGnSw%3D%40proton.me. --b1_Vad7TF5Id4626KUrWO3KCSLYEz02NkxrjqlAvtrtg Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
obvious troll is obvious = ;

thanks dick greaser&nb= sp;

> Like Paul Sztor= c's previous proposals, this one has zero negative trade offs. 
<= div dir=3D"auto">
okay i lolled 


On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 03:19, Jimmy Song <jaejoon@gmail.com> wrote:

For those that haven't figured this out yet= , the name on the original proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bit= coin Bugle, a satirical "news" site. He's trolling the list.


On Thu= , Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com> wrote:
Hypothetically miners cou= ld attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy wherein they consider the age of = the utxo being spent and factor that into the feerate they consider when ac= cepting the transaction into their block template. However this would be an= opt-in mechanism and miners can choose to not take this into consideration= when making the choice to mine the transaction or not. If enough hashpower= adopted this policy, you could end up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This = also means that you can do this without a consensus fork if there was appet= ite for it.

However, I suspect there will be extreme res= istance to this proposal and it is unlikely that miners would intentionally= leave otherwise-good fees on the table simply because they want to play pr= isoners dilemma games where they lose fees to the competition.
Keags

On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Ed= il Guimar=C3=A3es de Medeiros <jose.edil@gmail.com> wrote:
Not= sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoin thing= , but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted to stres= s the concept.

Since the value "tokens" in Bitcoin are = the utxos, outputs from transactions that have not been spent in another tr= ansaction, and since the sole purpose of the utxos are to atomically serve = as input to a subsequent transaction, how do you proposed to "tax" them?

I mean, let's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X= by building a simple p2pkh transaction with the address I provided. To mov= e that 1 BTC mean to authorize it as an input to a new transaction. In prin= ciple, that can only be done by me producing a valid signature using a priv= ate key.

Let's say I'm one of those infamous holde= rs. How do you propose the tax to be implemented?

= All the best.
--
E...

On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Gre= aser <thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFHi everyone,
It has become apparent to me that there is an issue where= users of the network holding their coins, are not adding value to the netw= ork.

As miners continue to get squeezed post halving, th= ey would benefit tremendously from fees being taken from individuals refusi= ng to move their coins, providing increased security to the network.
I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attached below.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-= 92fd-7549b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com.
<hodltax.md>

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