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[185.70.43.16]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-608b4985be3si52952a12.3.2025.06.13.06.07.24 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 13 Jun 2025 06:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 185.70.43.16 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.70.43.16; Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 13:07:21 +0000 To: Jameson Lopp From: "'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Cc: Matt Corallo , Andrew Poelstra , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <46349b6c-ccec-4378-8721-aecec22752e7@mattcorallo.com> <8d158e3d-b3cc-44b6-b71b-ab2e733c047c@mattcorallo.com> Feedback-ID: 7060259:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: bad91f85347f4d3d5203df276937a73b61f563b0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1=_IdikiOxBUGcc5NvF98ko8C2QEx0ZAkHij4ifUG9UsI" X-Original-Sender: darosior@protonmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=fA1vN44i; spf=pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 185.70.43.16 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=darosior@protonmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com X-Original-From: Antoine Poinsot Reply-To: Antoine Poinsot Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --b1=_IdikiOxBUGcc5NvF98ko8C2QEx0ZAkHij4ifUG9UsI Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jameson, Thanks for sharing. Although i grew more skeptical of the reactive security= model of vaults as i implemented them in practice for real users, i can ap= preciate people's mileage may vary. That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanism to forward any amo= unt received on a script A to a pre-committed script B. CTV+CSFS does not e= nable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CCV) is more controver= sial because of its potency. I see the CTV+CSFS bundle as maximizing "bang = for your buck" in terms of capabilities enabled compared to the accompanyin= g risk. If we do want vaults, then we need to get past the MEVil concerns a= nd much more interesting primitives are actually on the table. I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a potential = future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be used to motiv= ate said proposal. Best, Antoine Poinsot On Friday, June 13th, 2025 at 7:15 AM, Jameson Lopp wrote: >> Unlike a generic "We Want Things" sign-on letter, individual messages in= dicating desire to utilize features is way more compelling. > > Then I submit my essay from 2 years ago (https://blog.casa.io/why-bitcoin= -needs-covenants/) and will quote myself: > > "There are clearly a LOT of use cases that could potentially be unlocked = with the right kind of covenant implementation. Personally, having spent 8 = years working on high security multi-signature wallets, I'm most interested= in vaults. I believe the value they offer is quite straightforward and is = applicable to every single self-custody bitcoin user, regardless of what ty= pe of wallet they are running." > > - Jameson > > On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 6:54=E2=80=AFPM Matt Corallo wrote: > >> To be fair to James, in my (luckily rather brief) experience with Bitcoi= n-consensus-letter-writing, >> its nearly impossible to forge a statement that everyone agrees to that = is consistently interpreted. >> >> Matt >> >> On 6/12/25 3:51 PM, Andrew Poelstra wrote: >>> Le Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 02:38:13PM -0400, James O'Beirne a =C3=A9crit : >>>> >>>> As the person who coordinated the letter, I can say that this is not a= n >>>> accurate characterization of the signers' intent. Everyone who signed >>>> explicitly wants to see the imminent review, integration, and activati= on >>>> planning for CTV+CSFS specifically. The letter is intentionally concis= e to >>>> make sure there are no misunderstandings about that. >>>> >>>> I spoke to each person on the original list of signatories who either = did >>>> (or didn't) sign and this was made very clear. Some people didn't sign= as a >>>> result of what the letter says. >>>> >>> >>> The letter asks Core to "prioritize the review and integration" on an >>> accelerated timeline, and that this will "allow" for "activation planni= ng". >>> >>> Early drafts of the letter did ask for actual integration and even >>> activation, but I did not sign any of those early drafts. It was not >>> until the language was weakened to be about priorities and planning (an= d >>> to be a "respectful ask" rather some sort of demand) that I signed on. >>> >>> >>> The letter is concise but unfortunately I think Matt is correct that it >>> offers a broad range of interpretations, even among the signers. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to [bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:bitcoindev%2Bun= subscribe@googlegroups.com). >> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind= ev/f8b37a59-0897-40df-a08e-7812c806a716%40mattcorallo.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde= v/CADL_X_fxwKLdst9tYQqabUsJgu47xhCbwpmyq97ZB-SLWQC9Xw%40mail.gmail.com. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= psUO5AHTglJ3KiGM5tTd0sqrFDUexydKzfkOpjOHcWM97OdluX_hIplsXxl_9vzS1pPOqMek3rV= BhlzWiPyuvFvz7VmG9FNXapkMG97a7xc%3D%40protonmail.com. --b1=_IdikiOxBUGcc5NvF98ko8C2QEx0ZAkHij4ifUG9UsI Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jameson,

Thanks fo= r sharing. Although i grew more skeptical of the reactive security model of= vaults as i implemented them in practice for real users, i can appreciate = people's mileage may vary.

That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanis= m to forward any amount received on a script A to a pre-committed script B.= CTV+CSFS does not enable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CC= V) is more controversial because of its potency. I see the CTV+CSFS bundle = as maximizing "bang for your buck" in terms of capabilities enabled compare= d to the accompanying risk. If we do want vaults, then we need to get past = the MEVil concerns and much more interesting primitives are actually on the= table.

I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a poten= tial future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be used to = motivate said proposal.

Best,
Antoine Poinsot
On Friday, June 13th, 2025 at 7:15 AM, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lop= p@gmail.com> wrote:
> Unlike a generic "We Want Things" sign-on= letter, individual messages indicating desire to utilize features is way m= ore compelling.

Then I submit my essay from 2 years ago = (https://blog.casa.io/why-bitcoin= -needs-covenants/) and will quote myself:

"The= re are clearly a LOT of use cases that could potentially be unlocked with t= he right kind of covenant implementation. Personally, having spent 8 years = working on high security multi-signature wallets, I'm most interested in va= ults. I believe the value they offer is quite straightforward and is applic= able to every single self-custody bitcoin user, regardless of what type of = wallet they are running."

- Jameson
On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 6:54=E2=80=AFPM Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com> wrote:
To be fair to James, in my (luckily rather brief) = experience with Bitcoin-consensus-letter-writing,
its nearly impossible to forge a statement that everyone agrees to that is = consistently interpreted.

Matt

On 6/12/25 3:51 PM, Andrew Poelstra wrote:
> Le Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 02:38:13PM -0400, James O'Beirne a =C3=A9crit = :
>>
>> As the person who coordinated the letter, I can say that this is n= ot an
>> accurate characterization of the signers' intent. Everyone who sig= ned
>> explicitly wants to see the imminent review, integration, and acti= vation
>> planning for CTV+CSFS specifically. The letter is intentionally co= ncise to
>> make sure there are no misunderstandings about that.
>>
>> I spoke to each person on the original list of signatories who eit= her did
>> (or didn't) sign and this was made very clear. Some people didn't = sign as a
>> result of what the letter says.
>>
>
> The letter asks Core to "prioritize the review and integration" on an<= br> > accelerated timeline, and that this will "allow" for "activation plann= ing".
>
> Early drafts of the letter did ask for actual integration and even
> activation, but I did not sign any of those early drafts. It was not > until the language was weakened to be about priorities and planning (a= nd
> to be a "respectful ask" rather some sort of demand) that I signed on.=
>
>
> The letter is concise but unfortunately I think Matt is correct that i= t
> offers a broad range of interpretations, even among the signers.
>
>

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/= msgid/bitcoindev/f8b37a59-0897-40df-a08e-7812c806a716%40mattcorallo.com= .

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