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[109.224.244.18]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6a1803df08f44-6fafba7b483si1414896d6.1.2025.06.05.07.33.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 05 Jun 2025 07:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of conduition@proton.me designates 109.224.244.18 as permitted sender) client-ip=109.224.244.18; Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2025 14:33:53 +0000 To: Jonathan Voss From: "'conduition' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Post-Quantum commit / reveal Fawkescoin variant as a soft fork Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <16f0f405-3f39-498e-9399-a6050773c4c7n@googlegroups.com> References: <16f0f405-3f39-498e-9399-a6050773c4c7n@googlegroups.com> Feedback-ID: 72003692:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 56be8f77044ec6cb6e65ee9d18aa35da8ee836b3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512; boundary="------acb03ffd8e4166be7641e6d59fb542b5ba92006acdb17a06b533172757097e0f"; charset=utf-8 X-Original-Sender: conduition@proton.me X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@proton.me header.s=protonmail header.b=cmyfsQpM; spf=pass (google.com: domain of conduition@proton.me designates 109.224.244.18 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=conduition@proton.me; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=proton.me X-Original-From: conduition Reply-To: conduition Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------acb03ffd8e4166be7641e6d59fb542b5ba92006acdb17a06b533172757097e0f Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary=---------------------eb64f0b1ff2d8d04028ec54de9716e27 -----------------------eb64f0b1ff2d8d04028ec54de9716e27 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jonathan, I feel you're making a bigger deal of this than it needs to be. We're talking about a way for laggards to rescue money locked in quantum-vulnerable hashed addresses. I don't think anyone wants a commit/reveal protocol to become the sole primary method of transferring BTC. We're more or less designing a system for a wallet which wakes up after a years-long coma to find quantum computers are a threat. This wallet can make a single "commitment transaction" followed by a single "reveal transaction", and this dance moves all of the funds in the wallet to a new (yet to be defined) quantum-resistant script. After that, sending Bitcoin should work mostly as normal. Even if you're still hard-line opposed to the idea of requiring a post-quantum UTXO to recover pre-quantum UTXOs, it's still completely possible to use commit/reveal protocols without out-of-band purchase of new BTC: You can simply spend a very small=C2=A0pre-quantum UTXO to create the commitment. A UTXO worth only a few thousand sats, for instance. This would be uneconomical for the quantum attacker to double spend, and so you'd most likely get your commitment mined safely without buying new BTC. The only situation in which this is not possible would be for a party with only very high-value pre-quantum UTXOs, and no small UTXOs. These parties would need to buy a new (small) UTXO out-of-band. regards, conduition On Wednesday, June 4th, 2025 at 2:56 AM, Jonathan Voss = wrote: > If using a monetary network requires out-of-band payments, then that seve= rely limits the actual utility of the monetary network as a medium of excha= nge. Imagine if the only way to make a bank transfer was to first go in-per= son to the bank of the recipient of the transfer to give them something tha= t then allowed your bank to make the transfer -- it would be an unworkable = monetary system. Similarly, if future Bitcoin transactions require making o= ut-of-band payments, then it has failed as a monetary network with an endog= enous unit of account. The whole system has to work without reliance upon e= xogenous monetary media or mechanisms. As such, the commit-and-reveal schem= e fails to maintain the monetary properties of the network as a whole unles= s we assert reliance upon altruism to get the commitments into the blockcha= in, which instead breaks the incentive-based game theoretic design. Maybe i= t would work as a stop-gap solution in the event of the advent of a relevan= t quantum computer, but it is certainly not a good long-term plan as curren= tly formulated. > Recall the original premise: "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash Sys= tem". If you can't transact with it as cash, i.e. as the ultimate endogenou= s settlement mechanism, then it is no longer Bitcoin. Requiring an exogenou= s system fundamentally breaks the model. >=20 > -- Jonathan > On Monday, June 2, 2025 at 9:53:55=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4 Peter Todd wrote: >=20 > > On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 03:00:41PM -0700, Jonathan Voss wrote: > > > As far as I can tell, the main flaw in commit/reveal protocols is in = the > > > commit phase: if revealing a commitment with N confirmations is requi= red to > > > spend bitcoins, then, without spending any bitcoins, how do you get t= he > > > commitment into the blockchain in the first place? Maybe I am just > > > misunderstanding this. If so, then a commit/reveal scheme may be a wo= rkable > > > solution. > >=20 > > You can always purchase new BTC to perform the commitment. > >=20 > > Indeed, this problem is often seen in alt-coins where fees must be paid= in a > > native asset, while users are trying to send some kind of tokenized ass= et like > > a USD token. You can have funds that you can't move because you don't h= ave the > > correct asset. While annoying, this isn't a fatal problem. > >=20 > > -- > > https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde= v/16f0f405-3f39-498e-9399-a6050773c4c7n%40googlegroups.com. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= rS9T4wK6hYkXYD2kPYsaEsFIZbSR5uLGk639NXHaV5s75GjO61P2u4xDwWgNIjvF6g9DLZA4HXO= pPWCTMmriWUKM_CnQuP_RxKcSeEW7MGY%3D%40proton.me. -----------------------eb64f0b1ff2d8d04028ec54de9716e27 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; filename="publickey - conduition@proton.me - 0x474891AD.asc"; name="publickey - conduition@proton.me - 0x474891AD.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="publickey - conduition@proton.me - 0x474891AD.asc"; name="publickey - conduition@proton.me - 0x474891AD.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgUFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCgp4ak1FWkRub0tSWUpLd1lCQkFI YVJ3OEJBUWRBcnBZYWFjZDgwcXdocmNaQW9VbW9NSHNWS21iZWlPZUEKcFhXbk1ybFdPZkxOSzJO dmJtUjFhWFJwYjI1QWNISnZkRzl1TG0xbElEeGpiMjVrZFdsMGFXOXVRSEJ5CmIzUnZiaTV0WlQ3 Q2pBUVFGZ29BUGdXQ1pEbm9LUVFMQ1FjSUNaQjRLV3p0aFBhenhRTVZDQW9FRmdBQwpBUUlaQVFL YkF3SWVBUlloQkVkSWthMENNdHJMZGcxM2EzZ3BiTzJFOXJQRkFBQTZhQUVBM1RmNHdqSVoKYnox K0diS0h4K09WQytNUXlVdi84RStoWUpjTE5QZnA0NEFBLzNiak5OTXN4WHdJTGZEM0xManNVVWFo CitBV2JyblVjVUFqQ2R1d3hUT01LempnRVpEbm9LUklLS3dZQkJBR1hWUUVGQVFFSFFDSXYxZW5J MU5MbAo3Zm55RzlVWk1wQ3ZsdG5vc0JrTmhQUVZxT3BXL3RKSkF3RUlCOEo0QkJnV0NBQXFCWUpr T2VncENaQjQKS1d6dGhQYXp4UUtiREJZaEJFZElrYTBDTXRyTGRnMTNhM2dwYk8yRTlyUEZBQUFR TFFEL2NCR2kwUDdwCkZTTkl2N1B6OVpkeUNVQjhzTy90dWZkV3NjQkNZK2ZMYTV3QkFNK0hTL3Jp S014RGt0TkhLakRGc2EvUgpEVDFxUGNBYXZCaXc2dDZ4Ti9jRgo9Y3d5eAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1Ag UFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCg== -----------------------eb64f0b1ff2d8d04028ec54de9716e27-- --------acb03ffd8e4166be7641e6d59fb542b5ba92006acdb17a06b533172757097e0f Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail wrsEARYKAG0FgmhBqsIJkHgpbO2E9rPFRRQAAAAAABwAIHNhbHRAbm90YXRp b25zLm9wZW5wZ3Bqcy5vcmfB7ZMemEvBw+d6Yhf8f+ZlcrJEFfG8fY4c4X7k +L+k9hYhBEdIka0CMtrLdg13a3gpbO2E9rPFAABDfgD/dcj9skFpjQmaN4ip zY42ke6aztH97rEJ1jvOuytX6sABAMZ5zbTIsdB0k0vkgN9KSlf0lGlC3dr/ jgXWOZGkT4kO =N6+D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------acb03ffd8e4166be7641e6d59fb542b5ba92006acdb17a06b533172757097e0f--