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[109.224.244.21]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5614622812f47-404d987f710si569061b6e.3.2025.05.21.07.47.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 21 May 2025 07:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.21 as permitted sender) client-ip=109.224.244.21; Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 14:47:24 +0000 To: Bob Burnett From: Pieter Wuille Cc: Sjors Provoost , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <7Q6uglccxrI_LPvP2bKeTwFcBAKJ5u8u6NHtDl-dNev_kplv2lfh46r-z2iflmtnnsa8YWgn1A2M8S0jLORI2GxwNQ7qmfyM2jqQiB6JTiw=@protonmail.com> <7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547@sprovoost.nl> Feedback-ID: 19463299:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 8fae58123ec508b23711336fcb78e394a4e185bc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1=_gnVv9UcFA0LbQs4VlvIHcAOgxjh9LY1c16rBpHq4Qg0" X-Original-Sender: bitcoin-dev@wuille.net X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@wuille.net header.s=protonmail2 header.b=rT6qQYxk; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bitcoin-dev@wuille.net; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=wuille.net Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --b1=_gnVv9UcFA0LbQs4VlvIHcAOgxjh9LY1c16rBpHq4Qg0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 9:44 AM, Bob Burnett wrote: > On your other point regarding non-standard, I think you may have misunder= stood my point. For me, the issue in the future in not about services for n= on-standard transactions but about giving users a mechanism whereby they ca= n get assurances about future access and cost of block space. For instance,= a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) might know that they wil= l have a lot of demand for block space in October because they are going to= be doing a major marketing campaign then. The campaign would result in a l= ot of UTXO consolidation and self-custody. The problem for them is that sit= ting here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for block = space and what the cost of that block space will be. By getting the right a= rrangement with a miner (or coalition of miners), they will be able to get = guarantees of access to October block space and lock in cost for that space= . (While this exact scenario is just an example, I can say that I am alread= y working on some similar things.) I think this is a rather remarkable response, and it undermines any opinion= you might have about transaction relay policy. To me, the primary reason why I feel divergence between relay policy and th= e set of transactions actually being mined is worrisome is because it incen= tivizes private transaction submission to miners. If that becomes commonpla= ce enough that a substantial portion of income is due to it, it may result = in an inability for new small miners to enter the mining landscape in a per= missionless manner, as they will not be competitive without income from pri= vate submission. The presence of non-publicly-enforced business deals about future block spa= ce is a manifestation of the exact same danger, but arguably more imminent.= I recognize the use case, but the demand for it, or rather the feasibility= of obtaining it, sounds to me like an serious potential threat to Bitcoin.= And I don't know what can really be done about it, except more decentraliz= ed mining. Sorry to say, but if your point is "we don't care about the public network'= s relay policy, because we'll just mine what our big direct customers want = anyway", then you are quite literally what we need to prevent. -- Pieter > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= vi5JgqhluYrppUFAXJ_5OKePwUkfF1u5Mdtdc89NUziVAd6hElH5D27rjXA25Kolsh4vbWoWbij= 6-uax3Ws60T1jZ9UEO35UPcpGVP5XYvk%3D%40wuille.net. --b1=_gnVv9UcFA0LbQs4VlvIHcAOgxjh9LY1c16rBpHq4Qg0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bob,
=20
=20
=20

On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 9:44 AM, Bob Burnett <bob.burnet= t@barefootmining.com> wrote:
=20

On your other point regarding non-standard, I think you may have m= isunderstood my point.  For me, the issue in the future in not about s= ervices for non-standard transactions but about giving users a mechanism whereby they can get assurances about future access and cost of block spac= e.  For instance, a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) mi= ght know that they will have a lot of demand for block space in October bec= ause they are going to be doing a major marketing campaign then.  The campaign would result in a lot of UTXO = consolidation and self-custody.  The problem for them is that sitting = here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for block space= and what the cost of that block space will be.  By getting the right arrangement with a miner (or coalition of m= iners), they will be able to get guarantees of access to October block spac= e and lock in cost for that space.   (While this exact scenario i= s just an example, I can say that I am already working on some similar things.)


= I think this is a rather remarkable response, and it undermines any opinion= you might have about transaction relay policy.


To me, the primary reason why I feel div= ergence between relay policy and the set of transactions actually being min= ed is worrisome is because it incentivizes private transaction submission t= o miners. If that becomes commonplace enough that a substantial portion of = income is due to it, it may result in an inability for new small miners to = enter the mining landscape in a permissionless manner, as they will not be = competitive without income from private submission.


The presence of non-publicly-enforced business deals about future blo= ck space is a manifestation of the exact same danger, but arguably more imm= inent. I recognize the use case, but the demand for it, or rather the feasi= bility of obtaining it, sounds to me like an serious potential threat to Bi= tcoin. And I don't know what can really be done about it, except more decen= tralized mining.


S= orry to say, but if your point is "we don't care about the public network's= relay policy, because we'll just mine what our big direct customers want a= nyway", then you are quite literally what we need to prevent.


--
Pieter


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