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[185.70.43.16]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ffacd0b85a97d-3b5e8bd2491si273179f8f.1.2025.07.14.07.23.37 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 14 Jul 2025 07:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 185.70.43.16 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.70.43.16; Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 14:23:30 +0000 To: James O'Beirne From: "'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Cc: Greg Sanders , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] A Taproot-native (re-)bindable transaction bundle proposal Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <26b96fb1-d916-474a-bd23-920becc3412cn@googlegroups.com> <_POzkO7sHDURx6skGAWsrxN_UUtN_6Ak6donzVhmzYzAV6Ej22jBnE2baxM_WtqxW2RNvDjze72kOVgowNhqGSJ1dg5m_HTO3FuG6QM5daw=@protonmail.com> Feedback-ID: 7060259:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: eff1dc43778abd51aac21bbc16f1b3a8841b3fbc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1=_8EaWQSj2nPOfydXj958OCkWVsfTyhxurQlPhQ" X-Original-Sender: darosior@protonmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b="m1RM5/fn"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 185.70.43.16 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=darosior@protonmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com X-Original-From: Antoine Poinsot Reply-To: Antoine Poinsot Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --b1=_8EaWQSj2nPOfydXj958OCkWVsfTyhxurQlPhQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James, I'll let readers decide for themselves whether your citation of that data w= as intended to justify the content of the sentence that immediately followe= d. Thanks for the script. It is consistent with the numbers that Murch and I c= ited. This is equivalent to picking 90-day as the moving average on 0xb10c'= s website[^0]. Again, a quick glance at this graph gives a pretty good indi= cation of the direction of Taproot adoption. The share of created outputs (= by value) went from 1.6% a year ago to 6.7% today. We all wish Bitcoin users adopted the latest technology faster than they do= , but this is probably only going to get slower as Bitcoin matures. And the= trend from the past year gives some reason to be optimistic. In any case, none of this is a reason to incentivize users to stay on older= versions of the scripting context by going out of our way to also enable n= ew features there. If anything the slight nudge to upgrade to Taproot shoul= d be seen as a good thing. Best, Antoine [^0]: https://mainnet.observer/charts/output-type-distribution-amount/ On Friday, July 11th, 2025 at 7:39 PM, James O'Beirne wrote: > Hi Antoine, > >> You state that between 0.1% and 0.75% of all bitcoins in existence are >> held in P2TR outputs, and use this figure to conclude the >> "overwhelming majority of **value transfer** in bitcoin is still >> happening in a pre-Taproot script context". > > I think you might have misparsed my email; I wasn't using one > observation to justify the other. > > I ran a script[0] to tally the value of newly created outputs by address > type, and the node tells me that 93.5% of all output-value created over > the last three months is non-P2TR. > > I'll leave it to you as to whether 93.5% constitutes an "overwhelming > majority of value transfer," but I wouldn't really consider that > characterization as dishonest. > >> In 2024 and 2025 between 20% and 40% of all onchain transfers used >> Taproot[^0]. > > If we're going to talk about cherry-picking, here's where to do it. > From the previously linked mempool.space research post[1], they "find > that the vast majority (86%) of p2tr UTXOs are sub-1000 sats in value." > So the case for *ahem* "legitimate" Taproot activity is probably worse. > > [0]: https://gist.github.com/jamesob/1e3b07af5fbc1ef9bd9471d83f8d1fa6 > [1]: https://research.mempool.space/utxo-set-report/ > >> We should not provide new features for an outdated scripting context >> unless we have a strong reason to. > > Based on the numbers above, many users would likely disagree that > witness v0 is outdated. Sure, there are benefits to Taproot and I like > Schnorr signatures as much as the next guy, but the fact is that there's > nothing wrong with wit v0 and most users of bitcoin still make use of > it. Professionally, I'm in this position. > > I'll respond to the other stuff later. > > Sincerely, > James > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde= v/CAPfvXfL59wF-sfrnwkK0NUeGCphsJ1VJzGmbTUDHgNFncx2VSw%40mail.gmail.com. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= woOdz4IR09csuZZbFa1v7wdKaTWGBtg_3ouuFkxSP2MAbRnnsCMg0KfgPUBWF3tLTQ7gfdTmWoB= sj1kUIi0duSbtxfssp9cg61M8S4JjwBU%3D%40protonmail.com. --b1=_8EaWQSj2nPOfydXj958OCkWVsfTyhxurQlPhQ Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi James,

I'll let= readers decide for themselves whether your citation of that data was inten= ded to justify the content of the sentence that immediately followed.
=20
=20
=20

<= div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Thanks for t= he script. It is consistent with the numbers that Murch and I cited. This i= s equivalent to picking 90-day as the moving average on 0xb10c's website[^0= ]. Again, a quick glance at this graph gives a pretty good indication of th= e direction of Taproot adoption. The share of created outputs (by value) we= nt from 1.6% a year ago to 6.7% today.

We all wish Bitcoin users adopted the lates= t technology faster than they do, but this is probably only going to get sl= ower as Bitcoin matures. And the trend from the past year gives some reason= to be optimistic.

= In any case, none of this is a reason to incentivize users to stay on older= versions of the scripting context by going out of our way to also enable n= ew features there. If anything the slight nudge to upgrade to Taproot shoul= d be seen as a good thing.

Best,
Antoine

On Friday, July 11th, 2025 at 7:39 PM, James O'Beirne <james.obe= irne@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Antoine,

> You s= tate that between 0.1% and 0.75% of all bitcoins in existence are
> h= eld in P2TR outputs, and use this figure to conclude the
> "overwhelm= ing majority of **value transfer** in bitcoin is still
> happening in= a pre-Taproot script context".

I think you might have misparsed my = email; I wasn't using one
observation to justify the other.

I ran= a script[0] to tally the value of newly created outputs by address
type= , and the node tells me that 93.5% of all output-value created over
the = last three months is non-P2TR.

I'll leave it to you as to whether 93= .5% constitutes an "overwhelming
majority of value transfer," but I woul= dn't really consider that
characterization as dishonest.

> In = 2024 and 2025 between 20% and 40% of all onchain transfers used
> Tap= root[^0].

If we're going to talk about cherry-picking, here's where = to do it.
From the previously linked mempool.space rese= arch post[1], they "find
that the vast majority (86%) of p2tr UTXOs are = sub-1000 sats in value."
So the case for *ahem* "legitimate" Taproot act= ivity is probably worse.

[0]: https://gist.github.com/jamesob/1e3b07af5fbc1ef9bd9471d8= 3f8d1fa6
[1]: https://resear= ch.mempool.space/utxo-set-report/


> We should not provide= new features for an outdated scripting context
> unless we have a st= rong reason to.

Based on the numbers above, many users would likely = disagree that
witness v0 is outdated. Sure, there are benefits to Taproo= t and I like
Schnorr signatures as much as the next guy, but the fact is= that there's
nothing wrong with wit v0 and most users of bitcoin still = make use of
it. Professionally, I'm in this position.

I'll respon= d to the other stuff later.

Sincerely,
James

--
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