From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from fraxinus.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE90C07FF for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:34:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fraxinus.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F6D875EA for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:34:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from fraxinus.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1F8AUXmNySjy for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:34:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-40130.protonmail.ch (mail-40130.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.130]) by fraxinus.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7931D875A7 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:34:16 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:34:05 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=default; t=1584725653; bh=iXUNLHLn2RQpciZcuou5QPl2jE5roWgYCnYME2NEZP0=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=OWKCxHIpSIkcOm/SyLxytdLd3uh/1UceNa1vCIJVXDVspcaV6hlgJBqAE0/NrNgXk ILdl4XmuajUqFQLU35xDUFeBjzWb0TiUt+Ccc/OafpSZw0bV/L81uzpStgk42BM12w dUHAneobKq6+DLQf0EEY4kMm4juMcrKGtfxDRlR0= To: Pavol Rusnak From: Ethan Kosakovsky Reply-To: Ethan Kosakovsky Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4cc5041f-3960-8f42-256f-5e00e12d05c5@satoshilabs.com> References: <_CC9MLKCy5rmooAmR91_34tQxgDiXDJCdY4W6_X6xqDJUiAEuaWBVi8iBaFipx2KGt5_mf5XqFKMfoNgemTPCMgraWt5CVRifUM5iMolxto=@protonmail.com> <4cc5041f-3960-8f42-256f-5e00e12d05c5@satoshilabs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:58:13 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] RFC: Deterministic Entropy From BIP32 Keychains X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:34:18 -0000 Pavol, Yes thank you. I find abstracts hard, I will try again. Currently I need a separate BIP30 for many of my wallets. I cant have one m= aster seed for all my wallets because some are less safe than others and st= oring the master in each environment will increase the chance it could be c= ompromised (e.g. hot environments). I cant export a hardened xprv from my m= ain BIP32 keychain and import it to my JM/Android wallet because they dont = support it. There's also a usability issue there since xprvs are not easy t= o type. e.g. 1. Join Market server (online) 2. Lightning node (online) 3. Trezor (offline) 4. Smartphone wallet with coffee money (online) (and no HWW support) 5. Bitcoin Core (doesn't use BIP39 at all) I cannot use the same BIP39 seed across all these services. 1,2,4,5 are eff= ectively hot wallets. The problem is BIP39. BIP32 is fine but the backup process is not human fri= endly. It would have been better to simply serialize 128 or 256 bits of ent= ropy into words like BIP39 does and be done with it. After that, it's all d= eterministic anyway. Instead BIP39 tries to ensure pseudorandom entropy by = hash-stretching the initial entropy. We can already export keychains from BIP32, as xprvs, but there is also no = easy way to make as a human readable/typeable like BIP39 mnemonics. Most wa= llets don't allow you to import an xprv anyway, but again, good luck typing= it. What we are left with is an ecosystem that widely implements BIP39, so prac= tically speaking if I want to use multiple wallets and cannot share an exis= ting seed with that device, I need separate 12 or 24 word mnemonics. That's= 5 times the complexity to store than one (in my case). I need a new crypto= steel. If I have two different geological locations for backup, it's hard t= o add more, since I need to travel. The whole point of BIP32 was one master= key would rule them all - set up once, back up once and it's done. BIP39 w= as simply to make it human friendly to write down the seed on paper. The easy solution as I see it is have one BIP39 mnemonic as my "master root= key". From there it makes a BIP32 keychain and I can deterministically cre= ate child BIP39 seeds by taking a hardened path, using the private key as e= ntropy ENT to create a new BIP39 mnemonic. If I do it this way I can have o= ne initial backup, and if I need more wallets with a different seed, I can = do it without worrying about backups. I'm future proof this way. Ethan =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On Friday, March 20, 2020 5:29 PM, Pavol Rusnak wro= te: > On 20/03/2020 16:44, Ethan Kosakovsky via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > > I would like to present a proposal for discussion and peer review > > I read your proposal twice and I still don't know what kind of problem > are you trying to solve. > > This should be obvious from the "Abstract" and it's bad if it's not. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------- > > Best Regards / S pozdravom, > > Pavol "stick" Rusnak > CTO, SatoshiLabs