From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E16C002D for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2022 04:18:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B0C845E5 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2022 04:18:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=protonmail.com Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-5iWuF9osVl for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2022 04:18:10 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch (mail-4324.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.24]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7742C845E3 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2022 04:18:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2022 04:18:04 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654402687; x=1654661887; bh=UN9MIuJoj4MK24cfxtF8QMOG7KzEweNoepEx1nJ2e0s=; h=Date:To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=mWcnEgx5ZLalQ5tVWOw/gNw13aV3s9JIp7IVSwcdAOsN9Oc2uC7L2lsPTi9e1NwME jyBmkDkS+FIdhlztUAcKIZsZIB74bycU+jkj9HX0nlqk6rhFqiWi8V4hC7XeVC6mRh s4UoIhW3Vycs1egcfxVXuVXcXEh0OHWo7rNI1BiXkg82AI33zzzdnoEO8pZys2IsnO PSktr5+opvMXtt6+I+TEIDRGZkGJiGtuCPW+1LD8ijCjMrHlQnK0Jsyif3oJ/H4x7M pA9SFdPbaV05IjSe20/W3a2TziaiQjs/TqXHMyNIGKIAiU6cF9nii3okAepR9Qn4fw MfO2kXLq4G4+w== To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion From: alicexbt Reply-To: alicexbt Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 40602938:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 05 Jun 2022 07:48:41 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2022 04:18:11 -0000 Hi Jorge, Misinformation is false or inaccurate information, especially that which is= deliberately intended to deceive. A combination of 'misleading' and 'infor= mation'. Here are a few examples and I am sure I missed a lot of others but= its difficult for me to keep a track of everything: 1) Sapio is open source and everything mentioned in tweet is false: https:/= /web.archive.org/web/20220503050140/https://twitter.com/coinableS/status/15= 21354192434073602 2) Personal attacks on author of BIP 119 with false information: https://ni= tter.net/s3cp256k1/status/1521238634111770624 3) Andreas Antonopoulos shared false things about CTV and explained by Ryan= in this email: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/202= 2-May/020414.html 4) Misleading things shared in these emails by Michael Folkson: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/01= 9728.html https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/0202= 35.html https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/0202= 86.html https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/0203= 43.html https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/0203= 86.html 5) Peter Todd and Zac shared misleading things about BIP 119, bitcoin and L= 2. I replied in this email: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bit= coin-dev/2022-April/020322.html 6) Social media influencers like Peter McCormack tweeted they don't underst= and BIP 119 but its an attack (this was even retweeted by developers like P= eter Todd): https://nitter.net/PeterMcCormack/status/1521253840963653632 7) Some misconceptions about BIP 119 cleared by Bitcoin Magazine: https://b= itcoinmagazine.com/technical/what-is-bip-119-bitcoin-controversy-explained 8) There were lies and misinformation about BIP 119 on social media accordi= ng to this Bitcoin Magazine article: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/= analyzing-bip119-and-the-controversy-surrounding-it 9) John Carvalho tweeting false things: https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1468599535538745359 https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1522652884218822658 https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1442554615967354880 https://nitter.net/search?q=3DMIT%20(from%3ABitcoinErrorLog) 10) Greg Maxwell responding to misinformation related to BIP 119 but adding= false things in the comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/ui= m560/bip_119/i7dhfpb/ I am not surprised by your email but it would be better if the people who a= re interested in reviewing BIP 119 could raise the bar and not share mislea= ding information. /dev/fd0 Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, June 5th, 2022 at 12:12 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n = wrote: > "Some people say CTV is contentious, but they're spreading misinformation= "? Really? Seriously?Come on, guys, we can do better than nina jankovich an= d the "fact checkers". > Please, rise the bar. > On Fri, Jun 3, 2022, 19:44 alicexbt via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > > Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin > > > > Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork. C= TV is the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart fro= m the technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things: > > > > - Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market. > > - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity. > > - Better tooling could be available for application developers. > > - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries. > > - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and = coinjoin. > > - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need t= o convince a few people for grants. > > > > **Why covenants are not contentious?** > > > > Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread mi= sinformation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media but t= here are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant pro= posals in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded appro= ach. > > > > All the developers that participated in the discussion are either okay = with CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general. > > > > **How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?** > > > > I don't think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that eve= ryone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in Bitco= in. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and share hones= t opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits. > > > > I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won't mind anythin= g else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in Bitcoi= n before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to build i= nteresting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters also beli= eve there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes consider= ing each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not a rushed s= oft fork, less people followed the research and it was not mentioned on soc= ial media repeatedly by the respected developers like other soft forks. > > > > /dev/fd0 > > > > > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email. > > _______________________________________________ > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev